Welcome to Business without bs.

The only place where we read the budget so you don't have to because it's dull and frankly, none of us deserve that kind of emotional labor.

Today we're diving into a budget that somehow managed to terrify everyone beforehand, change very little on the day and still somehow piss off every SME in Britain.

We're doing this in three parts.

First business, then personal tax, and finally what it all means for overseas people coming into the uk.

Those people, pesky immigrants.

We're talking about funding gaps, the UK's long standing obsession with exporting its best startups to America, the inheritance tax madness, and why the word rich now secretly means knackered entrepreneur trying their best.

But and this is important and huge thanks go out to Alex to pledge friend of the show and Rachel Reeves, personal advisor.

There is one genuinely positive step, real movement on fixing the scale up funding gap.

So maybe, just maybe, the UK can finally grow the next Microsoft instead of handing it to Delaware.

So strap in, this is Tax without and we're going in.

Hello and welcome to Tax without and we are going to talk about the budget with my esteemed colleagues.

Gemma Hotter, who is got more degrees than she knows what to do with, is a US and a UK lawyer, also a private client advisor, property lawyer, wonderful person.

And Emma Florentine Lee, who's a chartered accountant and chartered tax advisor who does a lot also in personal tax and trusts.

Is that fair?

That's fair, that's fair.

And myself, Andy Uri, who's for his sins, also a chartered accountant, chartered tax advisor.

So we want to be positive, we don't want to be like massively negative about the budget because obviously it's a bit difficult in our job.

A lot of our clients who are entrepreneurs and running businesses have not been enjoying this government's approach to growth, which they find amusing as a sentence, I would say.

So I think we want to start, start with the positives.

We also are going to split this into three parts.

We're going to do what business, individuals and then a little bit at the end maybe about if you're an overseas person, a foreigner, an immigrant coming into the UK or here, here building a business, but not someone who spent their life living here, someone who's coming in temporarily or been here for a few years and talk about what, what, what, what it all means for you.

So brilliant.

So let's start, let's start with some positives and let's.

So what do we feel is positive, Emma?

And on the business side of things, what's going on, do you feel?

I think.

Having a budget where we're not wholesale changing many ways that the tax reliefs work and the tax system works must be a positive for business.

Obviously the last budget had a lot of huge changes, possibly more on the personal side than the corporate side.

But that feeling of instability, I think that that last budget create and all the hype before was really very detrimental.

I think while there are no huge changes this year, that in itself.

Sorry, this budget, that in itself, I think is positive for business.

It allows them to plan, it allows them to not have to spend a huge amount on professional fees to work out what all the changes mean for them.

And that in itself, I think is a positive thing.

Yeah, the positive is almost that they didn't do certainly as much as was rumored, which was very detrimental, I would say.

I mean, people are always sort of panicking and selling things and maybe there's an argument that some of that is good, but making people panic to take money out of pension schemes or that there's going to be an exit charge.

So foreigners were running overseas that just.

That didn't make a lot of sense.

But yeah, one of the first positives is they.

There is lots of little tinkering, but there weren't sort of so many massive changes for business I think is fair.

I almost think they should have made that clearer prediction pre budget because we had the pre budget briefing from Rachel Reeves and it actually told us nothing and it actually made everybody worry even more.

So I think everybody was expecting there to be much higher tax increases, particularly income tax increases.

And actually during that briefing she could have said, we have said we are going to be the government for growth, the government for stability.

And that would have, you know, eased the waters a little bit, I think.

I totally agree.

I think so many clients were putting plans on hold because they weren't sure what was happening and that kind of lack of investment has to be detrimental to the economy.

How is that a good thing?

If you're not investing in growing your business, you're not employing more people.

That, that's not good for anyone.

And I would add, look, I, I'm, I'm not the biggest fan.

The thing actually I don't enjoy that much about Rachel Reeves is how she delivers it.

It's so sort of angry almost.

And I find it sort of like, oh my God.

But I've got to give us some credit and that is that she has brought Alex to pledge.

She's a great friend of the show and we've, we Did a wonderful episode with her not long ago and I have all the time in the world for Alex to pledge.

I think she's an absolute gem of serious entrepreneur, serial entrepreneur brings her with the northern, northern wit and attitude that I think we all need.

And Rachel has brought her in as a key advisor many months back and has really told, you know, her to really focus on the things that need changing to help businesses.

So what the problem that they've, Alex has focused on, which is a well known problem, is the UK has this funding gap problem.

They call it the funding valley of death.

We're basically absolutely brilliant at small stage, so we seem to be very good at startups, getting companies started.

We've got SCIS relief, we've got EIS relief, we've got small UK funds focused on early rounds, we've got incubators, accelerators, we've got the right infos, you know, ecosystems for all of this.

Good, good friends of the show, people like James Sinclair point out that there are far too many taxes at these initial stages still in terms of, they, they like to call them turnover taxes.

But we're very good at creating startups.

Brilliant at it.

We have more startups in the UK than the rest of Europe combined or some crazy stat like that, you know, certainly, certainly we're absolutely great at it.

Then the walls, wheels fall off between the sort of 20 million and 100 million, which is, if you want to talk in series A mumbo jumbo, it's so series A pre series C. But effectively when a company has stopped being a startup, prove what it can do is getting there and now needs to scale and need significant money to do that, you know, to do so building teams of 100, 500 people and raising 20 to 100 million pounds to scale.

Now we don't, we are very bad at that.

And so what happens is you can't get the funding here.

EIS is not designed for those sorts of sums.

EIS is a maximum lifetime limit of 12 million, I think 5 million per year.

It's just not enough.

So you've got to.

Then look, so what happens is you go to the us, the US said brilliant, yes, we love it, we'll do it.

But you've got to do a Delaware C corp.

They flip the structure.

The Delaware flip, as it is known, is not an Olympic, Olympic way of getting over the pole.

The pole, the high jump or anything, but is a way of restructuring your company.

So the UK company goes from being the holding company with all the IP to a subsidiary and all the IP gets ripped up to America and off it goes to become an American company.

And frankly some British people who have fed up with the weather think, brilliant, I'm going to go live in California or something.

So it's all very exciting and that's been going on forever.

And it basically means that we invest in these companies and then we don't really get the benefit.

So what Alex has been focused on or what they focused on this budget, which is very positive, is to make EIS able and well to fix this gap, as it were.

I mean maybe Emma, you could, you could illustrate some of the ways they're trying to fix it perhaps.

Well, I mean EIS as you mentioned is a great tax relief on the investor and encourages them, I mean historically has been encouraged, encouraging them to invest in what was seen as small, risky startup companies.

Obviously with the increase in the limits, it's now these scale up companies.

So I see that as a very positive thing.

Getting more money into these companies at that stage in the UK allows them to continue being here and not to rip the value out and take it overseas.

So that's definitely got to be a positive thing.

We see a lot of companies use eis.

It's a real big draw for coming to the uk.

A lot of people come to the UK to find funding in the UK and I think that will open that up even more now, which is, is again has to be a positive thing for us.

So they're moving from previously it was 5 million maximum per year, they're moving that to 10 million and that.

And if you're a knowledge intensive company, which means that the, you expect most of your income and things, you have to fulfill certain criteria but you expect most of your income to come from intellectual property, which is quite common in startups.

The limit is 10, 10, 10 million per year is the current limit, that goes to 20 million.

So you could receive 20 million of investment per year to qualify under EIS and the lifetime limit is going from 12 million to 24 million, 4 million or 20 million to 40 million if you're a knowledge intensive company.

So big increases there.

I mean EIS rules also have loads of time limits on it.

So I think it's unclear exactly some of the detail on this.

So perhaps at the moment you have to receive funding within your first seven years if you're a normal company or if you're knowledge intensive within 10 years once you have received EIS funding.

By the way, if you're not aware of it, make sure you receive funding within your first seven or 10 years, depending whether you're knowledge intensive or not.

Because if you get any funding and you, you recognize that there will be need for further funding, you're actually in the club now and you can carry on raising.

So there is a slight misunderstanding out there that oh, companies over 10 years can't raise EIS.

They absolutely can, provided they have raised EIS funding previously and recognize it will need future funding.

And it is.

There are also some other reliefs if you were going overseas and, or opening up new markets and things.

They've increased the gross asset test.

So they're sort of saying now the maximum value of a company's gross asset used to be 15 million, now it's 30 million.

And that's great.

So the only other change they made, which was actually I guess not a positive, but to try and do it is you have, it's confusing.

You've got EIS Enterprise Investment Schemes.

So individuals invest under EIS and then you have EIS funds where effectively a limited company acts as a nominee and you can, venture capitalists use it and they invest into companies.

But then you have the traditional VCT funds, which one hasn't been set up in a long term, long time.

A VCT fund is really, they have to keep 80% of their investments in these high risk companies.

And you've got slightly different tax relief.

So you used to, when you went into an EEIS fund, get 30 back, that's being reduced to 20% I think.

Was it you were saying on the.

Basis VCT is, the VCT has been reduced on the basis.

Sorry, sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

So eis, I think just maybe going back a step on that, what I think is quite interesting about this is they've kept the reliefs for the investor the same.

So if you invest, you get an income tax reducer straight away that has stayed the same and if you hold your shares for three years and then sell them, they're free of capital gains tax, which is the real boom.

Because obviously everyone wants to invest in the unicorn, that's going to go huge.

And then on an IPO they can sell their shares and effectively pay no capital gains tax.

So given that business asset disposal relief CGT rates have gone up, that seems slightly contradictory in a way that they've kept that the same.

But that is great for people who want to invest in EIS schemes.

Vct, they have reduced the rate of income tax relief when you invest, I think that is on the basis that VCT returns.

So dividends that you've received on VCT shares are free of tax, whereas EIS dividends are not.

And also VCTs invest in a range of these companies and therefore spread the risk.

So there's some perception that that is a less riskier investment than investing in one EIS company and therefore that should be reflective in, in the tax relief you get to encourage the investment in higher risk companies.

But just to summarize, just in many ways the detail doesn't necessarily need to worry you that much other than they're trying to fix this gap.

We're one of the best inventors in the world, but we end up effectively exporting all our value to the us.

It's like having a sort of Premier League academy that produces world class footballers who will go and play for Real Madrid at 17 years old.

So they fix it.

They're trying to expand eis.

This incredible relief come up by Ken Clark, expand emi, which is the share option scheme, to try and say, hey, bigger companies can use this really good share option scheme that we have.

They're trying to encourage the UK pension funds to invest in growth capital.

So the UK has one of the lowest in the world, sort of, you know, 1 or 2%.

We invest in our own UK companies, domestic market of our pension funds, all those monies we're saving, very little of it goes into British companies.

And that's a bit of a problem where if you compare to other countries in the world that 50% of their money is going into their domestic market.

They're trying to create a domestic scale up fund and they're trying to make it attractive to keep headquarters and IP in Britain.

Which means you could also take solace in the fact that the UK is one of the best places in the world to have a UK holding company.

You can ask chat GPT right now, you'll see it come right up in the list.

And sometimes people worry, oh, is that going to change?

I cannot see that changing.

I cannot see them affecting the fact that the UK allow does not have withholding taxes on dividends.

You can sell subsidiaries you own tax free if you fulfill the rules.

So without getting into the detail, the UK is an amazing place to have holding companies and even US investors are comfortable with it and they're not going to mess that up.

And they're doubling down on it and trying to sort of say, come on, let's go after this section of the market.

So that's great.

Good for them, someone needs to fix it and good for them.

So, you know, well done, Alex.

Getting that along the line.

Anything else positive for the, for businesses, they didn't change anything.

They've done this bit.

I think that might be it.

Not a positive or a negative, but I, I suppose the other big changes to business rates, I mean business rates are, are really, really complicated, but they did make a change.

The actual net amount coming in from business rates isn't going to change.

But those businesses with a rateable value over £500,000, they are going to be paying a higher amount of business rates.

Whereas those companies that are in retail, leisure and hospitality, they're permanently going to be paying, well, not permanently, but during this government going to be paying a lower rate of business rate rates.

So it's a sort of both.

It depends.

Does it?

Yeah, it kind of.

It depends on both.

I mean, to be fair, the way business rates are calculated, each property has a ratable value that is roughly the market rent that you can get from that property as at a certain date.

So we've had this, this lower rate of business rates artificially I suppose, because they've been based on Covid rates of rent up until now.

And so all business rates are going to go up.

But in terms of who is going to be paying the most, it's going to be those large warehouses, large logistics centers, large premises with a rateable value over £500,000.

And then the Chancellor is trying to help out those in retail, leisure and hospitality by lowering their business traits.

Then my bone to pick, I would say, and the bone I would say so many of our clients would pick with the government over growth.

They talk about growth, but there is Nothing here for SMEs we're not talking about.

Now just to be clear in all these definitions, if you're like, so a startup ultimately is a thing that loses money and needs to raise capital.

It's a new idea.

We're trying to build a new business and we want to be Microsoft or whatever we're trying to do and that we're trying, trying to stop them all leaving the UK once we get them going, okay, great.

But SMEs are existing businesses that may or may not be turning a profit, but certainly generally speaking are standing their ground and trying to grow.

They have been hit, is, is so been miscalculated.

How hard that change to national insurance hits these businesses.

And most of these businesses exist on quite close to a knife edge.

I have a lot of clients who effectively the profit is what they used to take out with dividends and the change in NI wiped out their profit.

So what are they going to do?

It's push them to unfortunately look at employing overseas because they can't afford to employ here and there's nothing, there's.

There's only bad news for SMEs.

There is nothing, there is nobody really thinking about SMEs.

I think, I don't know what it is whether the government just thinks everyone's a big company with loads of money but there is no clear understanding of the SME market needs help.

They've put up dividend taxes which will affect the SMEs.

They put up minimum wage so that's affecting load of SMEs particularly in low, low paid areas like hospitality which is always already struggling.

Hell.

And in London lots of wealthy people have left so the restaurants aren't as busy.

You ask any restauranteur right now.

They can't work it out.

Where are the customers?

Well, the wealthy people who like eating out all the time, a bunch of them have left and it affects things.

So I can't say there is anything good in here for SMEs.

Probably to your point Emma, they could have changed more stuff and that would have been worse.

I mean they've also done which affects both startups and SMEs.

The business asset disposal relief is from the previous budget but they haven't changed that.

That's, you know, this, this great reliable relief that you would get 10% off the first million pounds that you earn one day if you sold your business, it's going up to 18%, you know, I mean great, thanks.

I don't, I mean, what else?

The employers as well.

Yeah, because it's going to be a 2,000 pound cap.

So they're now going to be paying national insurance on the balance of any pension contribution through salary sacrifice.

I'd say one positive thing possibly on the back of all of that is the change to the BPR rules and enable business property relief.

So the last budget introduced, this cap as has been very well publicized, this.

Is inheritance tax, this is inherited tax return business property relief.

Just to understand, I mean there's so many taxes in life, you've got your income taxes, you've then got which is what you earn or income things that like dividends.

Also a type of income tax but then you've got capital taxes on when you sell assets and then you've got that if you die inheritance tax.

Yeah, which I think had, you know, all the headlines talked about the farmers and no one really talked about the owner manager managed businesses that were going to be impacted.

The rules are exactly the same across both.

So let's just start the basics.

Used to be if you had a trading business, you could pass it to your son or your friend or whoever, you could leave this trading business and it wouldn't be taxed on the basis that you don't want commercial to inheritance tax.

I drop dead, I own a company, it's making money and I leave it to my friend or son.

It used to just pass to them tax free because we don't want to screw it business up.

But they removed that and said no, you'll pay 50% of the rate.

So you'll pay 20% tax now.

Yes, on anything above a million pounds.

So.

And that was the lot in the last budget.

But what they have done in this budget is make the rules a little bit more aligned with other reliefs for inheritance tax and allowed a transferable band between husband and wife which was not in the original rules for inheritance tax.

So that is one positive thing.

So if Effectively there's now 2 million pound relief for a couple if you end up dying with these type of businesses in your death estate.

So for a lot of these smaller businesses we're talking about, they are family run businesses and the idea is they are to be passed down.

So this I think is a positive thing.

Before this most recent budget people were planning and transferring shares amongst a family and stuff.

But if there was a situation where you were widowed and you, that was not a possibility.

Now you get £2 million on your death estate.

So people need to look at their wills, I guess, do they Gemma, and sort of make sure that they're not transferring the business to transfer it first to the wife.

I think a lot of that planning may have already happened to be fair with the rule changes.

This now just gives those people that are in a situation where they're widowed and they have an owner managed business or a farm an extra million pounds in their death estate calculation.

So we're, you know, that that relieves some of the burden, I think.

Yeah, I actually think that they were having to do more planning pre this budget because we were having to transfer for assets between husband and wife or between spouses, sorry.

To make sure that each of them were eligible for their 1 million pound relief.

Whereas now that it's.

It can be transferred between spouses.

You don't need that kind of lifetime plan.

But a lot of people have already done it.

Well, it's, it's a positive small tweak.

But people have wasted professional time.

And I have to say I, and I'm not even being political, I am absolutely opposed to the concept that businesses are going to be.

You will destroy most of these businesses.

It is insanity.

It sounds good to people.

It's like, oh, well, good.

Yeah.

It's worth more than 2 million quid.

Yeah.

Make them pay some tax.

Nonsense.

Yeah.

These are family businesses that have been passed down.

I mean we've got a, we're a family business.

Suddenly we're all sort of like, where are we going to find the money?

People like, well, you've got loads of money.

You don't.

A business is running.

You have a building that you may own.

That's the office.

You've got to flog it now and rent somewhere.

It's, it's.

You are stabbing business in the heart for no good reason.

And the amount you're going gonna get out of it all, it's nothing.

You know, I mean I think off the top of my head, inheritance tax raises, it's something like 9 billion or something.

It's, it's not even a lot of money.

If you go and look it up and this tweak probably goes on now, we might get 10 billion or 11.

It's like, yeah.

And you're gonna destroy British business.

Why does that.

People will lose their jobs.

People will lose jobs.

It's as simple as that.

Companies trading now we need to pay 20 of the value of that business.

This business is worth 2 million pounds.

Well, we don't have.

And we'll have to get rid of three people and we'll have to borrow it from the bank.

It's like, it makes zero sense to me.

And if they, if the money is in the business, which is by virtue of the fact you've got this value in your estate, in the business, you've got to extract that cash out of the business.

So there's the income tax complications of that before you even have the cash to be able to pay your inheritance tax.

So it's, it's.

They double down on it.

It's awful.

It's really sad politics because I think inheritance tax.

Because the majority of people will aren't business owners and the majority of people aren't affected by inheritance.

I think that's the thing.

I think only 10%, the top 10%.

And I've experienced this.

I'm sure if you aren't affected by tax, you love other people paying tax.

You're like, oh, yeah, yeah, make them eat.

But I think it is so ill thought through and it's bad politics.

Yeah.

But it's actually interesting.

We were talking about because.

Because the thresholds have been frozen for inheritance tax for so long.

Didn't you say for 15 years?

15 years, yeah, yeah.

323, 25,000 pounds.

So more and more people are actually going to become impacted by inheritance tax, especially if you have, say, a property in the south and the southwest, then you will.

Yeah.

So, you know, let's give an example now you've got a home worth £200,000 and you've got a, you have a small family business worth, you know, £300,000 and you're a single person, you're going to get hit by it.

Your business would be taxed if you drop dead.

You know, it's anywhere.

I, I think it is just terrible for business.

And, and, and unfortunately, you know, hopefully we can spread some, some knowledge here to say that this is not in the benefit of the UK or anyone, including people who've got jobs and you may find yourself losing your job because of this.

So terrible, terrible piece of planning, in my view.

But anyway, they put up dividend taxes, which obviously infect a lot of.

And I have a sort of.

I think it's a tax people around the table, you know, you spend your life in it.

And it's really hard to explain to people clearly when they sort of think, well, why, why should you be able to get dividends?

And, you know, I pay income tax.

He's a, he's a. I don't know how to put it succinctly, but they are, they are different things.

There's more risk involved when you are getting dividends on the whole than when you're getting a salary and getting an income.

There's more risk involved.

You don't know whether you can declare it, you've had to invest money to get it.

How else is the more risk?

Well, I would also.

So not about risk, but in terms of those increases in taxes, say, for example, to property income, I just think that is then going to be passed on to the renter.

Yeah.

A lot of landlords, they might try and swallow it, but if they can't, then it gets passed on in increased rent.

And also think about it, why Would I invest in a business?

I'm not.

Let's just do true dividends.

I'm going to invest in a business in return for dividends sense in a classic concept of they're going to pay me income each year.

If I'm going to pay as much tax on that as me working a job, then what's the point?

In a way it's sort of like, you know, you want to encourage investment, you want to encourage people to say, I won't do that.

Well, what I want to do that I'm going to invest my money in a way that I can get a return.

And I guess you can use ISIS and you can use some metrics, but say you had some money to invest.

You thinking, well, I don't really.

I mean, I'm going to get tax tax, so what's the point?

And I think when you're looking at those rates as well, you forget the fact that the corporate has paid corporate tax before the dividend is paid out.

So actually when you're doing these calculations now, going back to your owner managed business point, you know, we're going to be spending more money doing more calculations for people on how to extract profit because it's not as simple as, oh, the dividend rate is this and the PAYE rate is this because there's corporation tax.

And if it's your business, you've got to take that into account as well.

And I think a lot of people see the headlines and they go, oh, those people that get paid by dividends or aren't they on a easy street?

I have PAYE and ni.

The golden rule of life generally in tax is once you go over 50%, people lose motivation.

I think they did at one point put the tax rate up, didn't they?

To 50% or maybe it was even 55, I can't remember.

And actually the tax takings reduced because it went over that threshold.

People just said, I'm not, I'm not doing this anymore.

Well, you have hit the most important point.

That is just for whatever reason the government don't understand it or they do and it's just that the public don't want to hear it.

The truth is always counterintuitive.

Tax up means you get less tax.

Take now, it's not, it's called the Laffra curve.

It's not Obviously if it's zero, you get nothing and when it's 1% that's fine, but you hit this level quite quickly.

So it's proved the capital gains tax went down.

So we vote for these taxes and we go, yeah, tax them more, you will simply get less income because people will change their lives and people would do things differently.

Because once I know I'm, if I'm sitting as an advisor, I'm going to say, well John, you're going to lose 56 of this.

He's like, oh, of that.

What are we going to do about that?

I'm not going to work as hard then, you know, or I'm going to find a different way to structure my life, you know, so that I could just be a sole trader and not be a limited company or.

Anyway, well, I feel a little bit fented off my chest a little bit.

I'm starting to sound like Rachel Reeves.

But I, I think it's such a tragedy in this country.

We don't understand this because I think it is a basic principle.

We all want to be kind, we all want to be nice to everybody.

We all want this.

But to do that you need an absolutely fierce economy.

You need an economy that is killing it.

If you want an economy that's killing it, you need to love the SMEs and love the entrepreneurs.

The biggest, my biggest bugbear at the moment is everyone keeps using this word rich.

Tax the rich.

It depends what stats you look at.

But the rich are made up between 70 to 90% self made entrepreneurs.

You are saying tax the entrepreneurs.

Think about that as a sentence.

Now does that sound like a good plan?

And they're already, by the way, the other misunderstanding, paying loads of tax are just to be absolutely crystal with everyone.

If you live in this country long term, and that nowadays is more than 10 years, we tax you on absolutely everything.

And no, you cannot take £10,000 and set up a company offshore and stream all your profits offshore and not paying it.

You cannot do any of those things.

You are doing those things.

It is illegal.

Okay, there is.

It hasn't been the case for decades and decades and decades and decades that you've been able to do any of this stuff.

So start.

If you see an entrepreneur on the street, give him a hug.

Yeah.

Because he's busting his ass or she's busting their ass out there.

They're getting, they're paying some of the highest taxes in the world and they're getting treated like a villain.

That they are the rich with the big house.

And we need to tax them more because they're sitting on all this money.

What you're talking about is a global problem of billionaires and how money and cassets Accumulate.

You are not talking about British entrepreneurs who are working hard and paying very significant.

Well, not those ones that you see in the high street.

Because they're still here.

Yeah.

The ones you're not seeing in the high street streets who have gone already.

Those are the ones that, well, tax along the way.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe.

And they're push them away and people.

Say, well, they have an exit tax.

And the thing about the exit tax is most countries that have an exit tax don't have inheritance tax.

And if you introduce an exit tax, no one will come here.

So we are playing an international competition and I can tell you, we're buggering it up.

We are losing right now.

And I would say when.

When the main thing was always, oh, we're going to be the party of growth and growth.

Growth.

Growth was the biggest thing.

Well, how are you bringing in growth when you're taxing companies to this extent?

When we used to have a corporation tax rate of 19, I do think that was competitive against.

It's very competitive.

And as the tax.

As the tax rate went down, more companies.

Exactly.

More holding companies, more business, more entrepreneurs.

I used to have Australians coming in because the business asset disposal relief was 10 million pounds on 10%, which is better than Australia.

They thought it was brilliant.

They were like, I'm going to come and build my life in.

In the uk.

Look, they.

This is a very, very sad.

I really feel for SMEs and entrepreneurs and I would really, really love everyone to stop using this word rich.

Like there's a load of trustafarians.

We want to live in a country.

We're not prejudiced against anyone.

And you.

Those rich, by the way, are between 70 to 90% entrepreneurs taking massive risks with their lives to build businesses and create jobs.

And at the moment they are feeling so vilified and just downhearted about how they go forward.

They're just trying to survive at the moment and waiting for the government to change.

That's the truth.

Truth of it.

And.

And I deal with them every day.

I was with a lovely business last week, you know, illustrate the point.

British manufacturing business with very clever ip.

They want to open America.

Why do you want to open America?

Because I'm.

I cannot build a business anywhere here for my family.

I need other options.

I need to start setting up there.

I need another way to build a bridge out of this.

This is a totally British business.

Who had they said without the R D tax reliefs, we would be nowhere.

And they've taken those away from us.

We are.

Are Exhausted, Andy.

And we just.

And they've got this incredible IP and they should be flying, you know, it's so sad to hear.

And we hear it on a daily basis, I mean.

Anymore.

Yeah, no, I kind of think as well, just to that point.

We're globally mobile now.

You know, visas aside, which can always be a problem as we know we are globally mobile and if we do not encourage people to come to the UK with our tax system, which is really mostly all we've got, they're not going to come here.

And you know, those that are here and have built amazing businesses are going to go.

It is increasingly easy to do that.

You know, 30 years ago that was not really, you know, heard of.

Now it very much is.

We've got to up our game and play it globally.

They're not patriotic.

I mean, a lot of the people are leaving are multiple nationalities underneath it.

You know, almost to my point though, that shows how global, you know, mobility is increased in the.

In recent years.

It is easier to leave and other.

Countries are just charging them a flat.

Rate of tax and enticing them a.

Flat amount of tax, trying to get them into their country because it helps with that country's growth and it takes.

Away from our country very, very frustrating as tax people to sit and watch.

And I'm very on big love to all the SMEs, all the entrepreneurs out there.

I mean, all I can say is we got you, we got your backs as much as possible.

I think Alex Du Pledge is trying to fight your corner out there as well.

She's hopefully can move on to the SME problem and really do it.

I mean, I was explained that look, it's pretty difficult for Rachel Reeves.

She's sitting in a government of people who don't understand business run by unions.

I mean, the last thing that I'm really terrified for the SMEs and everyone is the employment law changes which will, you know, are coming, that they're going to make it, you know, and it's.

I just, I just can't even get my head around how this is going to help the country.

It sounds good, but it will just mean less employment and it will mean more overseas employment.

Employment and it will, you know, why, you know, anyway, we'll park that for another day.

I mean, just to give you one example of how it works in other countries.

You know, in Australia, for instance, when you have less than 15 employees, you don't pay employers national insurance or payroll taxes.

You can hire and far as you wish, they take the View that while you, once you cross the line, everything becomes difficult.

But just to give examples of things you could do for small business to help them fly, to help them grow, people stay below the VAT threshold here.

People, people get stuck.

People can't feel optimistic.

People don't know.

Anyway, we will move on.

But please hang in there, I guess.

And I'm sorry, there's nothing in this budget to help you.

You, you've mentioned the business rates.

Okay, it sounds complicated.

What's the advice on business rates?

Come.

And you know, I think on business.

Business rates, I would, I would speak with someone.

If you're not sure about what your business rate.

Every business needs to know what their outgoings are going to be.

Right.

And if you are looking at taking premises, looking at buying how somewhere or taking a lease of somewhere a lot, especially international companies, they just see the rent, the annual rent and that is all they think they will be paying.

And they don't realize that on top of that you will have business rates which is about half your rent on top of that.

So it is significant outgoing.

So I think speak with someone, make sure you know how much your business rates are going to be.

We can't guarantee it.

We can only do that for, you know, this first year because then it will change.

But, but at least have an idea of what the business rates are going to be.

Okay, should we move on to personal?

So much more in your ball court.

I do a bit more business than I do personal, I would say.

But let's talk about personal taxes.

Do you want to start, Emma, or what do you feel about what's gone on for personal, Personal business?

I mean, we actually, we didn't mention the employee ownership trust.

Did you want to talk about that?

Yeah, well, we can actually.

We've just got one of these.

Yeah, we can do that.

We've just got one of these across the line, just in the nick of time, it appears.

One final thing on business, but it's also very personal.

No, no, it's employee ownership.

Sort of both.

Yes.

Yeah.

So these are a structure.

It's a special type of trust structure.

It's the John Lewis structure for those that know about John Lewis, where a trust can be set up to purchase the shares of a trading company.

And historically the person who was exiting the business and selling the shares would get a whole 100% relief from capital gains tax on the disposal of the shares.

And this was meant as a succession planning tool.

And it was very, very good.

If it fit, if it fit the scenario.

This is based on research.

George Osborne was, I think, the person behind it, that companies owned by employees like John Lewis were more successful companies.

So they wanted to create a way that a UK limited owned by whatever, one or two people could effectively pass the business, business to his.

To the employees.

So the basic principles is all the employees would take ownership.

You could remain a minority, isn't it?

Yeah, there's some.

And there's your capital gains tax free.

Yes, exactly.

And.

And those rules have now changed.

Actually one, it's about one of the only rules that have changed actually on budget day.

Every other rule is a year down the line, two years down the line, maybe sometimes even more.

This one has changed on budget day.

If you are now going to be setting up an employee ownership trust, you will get taxed 50% on.

On the disposal and the trustees have.

The remaining capital gain.

Yes.

So you'll pay half.

You're paying half the capital gains tax you would be paying if you're selling it on the open market.

And the other 50% just gets deferred within the trust structure.

So that will, at some point, if those shares get sold, become chargeable.

I mean, with the John Lewis principle and a lot of these others, the idea is that the trust is.

Stays there for perpetuity.

So, you know, whether that actually will ever come into charge, who knows?

But that's been a big change and it's an interesting one because with the changes in business property relief, employee ownership trusts were banded around as maybe this is the solution to the changes in business property relief.

And I do wonder because there's been so much interest in employee ownership trusts, they changed a lot of the rules in the previous budget halfway through, while we were doing this transaction, which was helpful, thanks.

And these new changes have changed it even further.

Further.

And I do wonder whether that is a bit of a response to the fact that this was seen as the planning to.

To get around business property relief changes.

It kind of is a bit counterintuitive with.

You're talking about employees owning the business and being, you know, having a vested interest.

Obviously you've got the EMI scheme and that is the whole point of the EMI scheme and that's got more generous.

Yeah, Enterprise management incentive share options, where.

You give share options to your employees and if you do it in the right way, they can be very tax efficient.

That scheme has been increased and more people will be able to take advantage of it.

This is almost trying to get to the same place in a way of employee ownership and they're now making this one harder.

Yes.

That's a bit counterintuitive to me, but.

But that's where we find ourselves.

Maybe they don't like it because it was a conservative thing.

Free CGT for the big business owners who've sold that their business and they pay no capital gains tax.

It's not.

The headline isn't a good one.

Yeah, it's complicated.

It's complicated as in like they're quite complicated to go through.

You need.

Oh, yeah, yes.

You're not necessarily going to get the best price.

I mean you, I think you get market value, don't you?

But it's, it's meant.

Yes.

Now one of the new rules, it has to be at market value.

That is one of the rules.

But let's move on to some of the other.

What else would we say about.

For individuals at the moment, I think.

The biggest thing is probably the frame freeze to the income tax thresholds once again for a further three years.

So we've already had a freeze for a decade.

Well, it will be a decade by the time we get there.

And that is effectively a stealth income tax.

Rather than actually increasing income tax by 1 or 2%, which is what was banded around before the budget, by freezing it for a further three years, they get in a further £12 billion.

Yeah.

It's basically pulling people into removing the.

Meanwhile things are getting more and more expensive.

You're freezing that.

Those and, and, and people who get angry about it also say, well, hang on.

Meanwhile with pumping up everyone else's wages in the public sector, it's sort of.

I don't know, it's a bit tricky, isn't it?

I mean, it's very helpful for us as advisors.

I don't have to remember any numbers.

570 is.

It's been that for ages.

Oh, good.

You know, but around the side they're changing every single other thing.

Yeah.

So you'll.

Yeah.

What else has come in?

The, the salary sacrifice thing I think is interesting.

Obviously everybody's been running around selling salary sacrifice prices to companies because the company and the employee benefit and without getting lost in it, you slightly reduce your, your actual salary and you put the rest into a pension and there's a small saving and it's a bit complicated and frankly no one really bothered until the NI changes, which kind of made it all like, well, anything we can save is going to help our business.

They've come in and said, oh, we're going to bugger that up.

So everyone's a Bit like oh, they've changed it like well not for ages.

Anyway, maybe I would say make the.

Make the most of not having to pay taxes while you are paying into your pension.

I think that goes along with the changes to the ISA limits as well.

You know, do remember pensions are there and there were so many headlines of doom and gloom of pensions and I know they're now well they will be coming into scope of inheritance tax but there was a lot of rumors before the budget and people were trying to make or take withdrawals or pay into their pension or do all sorts of things pensions because they were all going to change.

Nothing has changed so and they're still there.

So don't forget to invest in your pension.

That is still a very good tax efficient way of investing.

Put in that point that there is a lot of people sometimes think people at private school get this education.

We don't by the way, no one does.

There is no financial literacy in this company country about you.

You taught about how to invest and save for the future and the earlier you start the better.

So really I would recommend you either do get and chat to a good financial advisor like we have at Uri Clark or read an absolutely excellent book called how to own the World by Andrew Craig, very close friend of the show.

Brilliant book.

It's on Spotify.

It'll explain sort of everything you need to know.

I mean he has quite strong views on some of these things but on a basic level you should be filling up your pension and you should be filling up your ISAs and as long as you're saving for the long term, I. E. More than five to 10 years.

And of course, of course this isn't financial advice, I'm just giving you a vague thought about it.

Stocks and shares and investing in things is the way to go.

Sitting your money in cash is not a good plan if you're investing for the long term.

Generally speaking if you need the money soon, but get some advice on it, get your head around it, read that book, go and speak to a financial advisor.

The sooner you start the better.

Don't let yourself over complicated.

But you know, as you say, pensions are still there, ISIS are still there, use them.

ISIS are going are changing, right, so you have a limit of £20,000 that you can put into your.

April 27th.

April 27th.

You will only be able to hold up to £12,000 of that in cash, the rest will have to be invested in stocks and shares or in non cash options.

And I think that's a really good thing.

I'm very positive.

I think there needs to be a real education piece around it.

Like you say, no one actually learns it at school.

Whether you go to a state school or private school, no one learns about it at school.

So maybe it's on us to educate people about stocks and shares and about the options that are available so that people aren't so scared about investing their ISAs into stocks and shares, ISAs rather than having them as cash.

And people say, well, I'm very risk averse.

Well, actually, if you're risk averse, do this.

And if, by the way, if you put your money in a pension fund, that's where they're putting your money too.

Bonds, stocks, shares, that's what they do.

But you can, if you're risk averse.

Diversification is the solution to risk averse.

Putting all your money in cash in a bank which frankly, up until recently was earning 0.5%, 1% less than inflation.

It's actually dwindling.

So unless you need to access this cash very soon, soon, you know, within the next few years.

But get some proper advice.

But, you know, I agree, I think you said it beautifully.

German I think there needs to be.

And that's what they're pushing for.

Why are we not investing in stocks and shares?

I also, I also think there could be, you know, another tweak in that.

We could say that a certain amount of stocks and shares ISA has to be invested in UK companies and that would help with the UK growth element as well.

I thought there was that.

Brilliant example.

We have such a rebellious attitude in the UK.

We put 50 billion into crypto, which is like more than we've put into UK stocks and shares, which, by the way, has created no jobs.

I know people love crypto and they think it's brilliant and that's great.

You know, bitcoin is its own thing.

It's a sort of alternative gold.

I don't, I don't think, I think any investment portfolio should probably consider it.

Maybe, you know, it's, it's a complicated question that I'm not here to answer.

But as a principle, it would have been very nice.

50 billion went into stocks and shares in the UK and created jobs and value for the country.

And you should be very positive about the London Stock Exchange, is it?

You should love the thing that created, made this country rich, enabled this country to win wars, whether we want to talk about it or not.

Anyway, I, I think you put it best, Gemma, about the.

Needs to be an educational piece there.

What are we going to talk about?

The property.

Oh yeah, the wealth, the mansion tax.

What do you feel about this?

Yeah, so there were so many rumors about all of these different land taxes and property taxes that were going to, to change.

At one point during the budget, Rachel Reeves goes and now onto land taxes.

And obviously as a property lawyer, my little ears prick up and she goes, I mean landfill taxes.

I was like, okay, I'm not that bothered.

So yeah, the really, the only property, the only change to property taxes is that now for those residential properties worth over £2 million, they will have an additional, they're calling it an additional council tax levy of to £2,500.

If a property is worth over £5,000,000, they will have an additional levy of £7,500.

I suppose one thing to mention is that even though they're calling it a council tax levy, it's not going to the council, it will be going into the government.

International taxes.

The other thing is, I don't know, what do you guys think?

I don't think £2,500, it's not a massive matter.

I think the assumption is, well, anyone who owns a property worth of £2 million can afford it.

Well, that's just not true.

But I think as a general thing, probably people with a five million pound house and a two million pounds could afford it.

But there will be a slice of people, you know, where they will living in expensive house and they won't have the money and it's actually not very nice for them.

I think also what you've got to understand is this just chipping away the whole time.

I, you know, will you upgrade?

You're in a house worth 1.3 million.

With 5 million you were going to maybe buy a nicer house.

House.

And if you look at some of the wealthy foreigners I know here, they take it as a bit of a kick in the bollocks that like oh well now property in London, now I'm just going to be taxed just to own it.

I think values might be affected.

So apparently the day after the budget, those properties that would be valued at £2 million had suddenly come down to about £1.8 million.

Funny that.

So you know, that's going to be impacted.

I wonder whether, especially for Those at the £5 million level, if you say £7,500 over, say over 20 years, you're talking about 150,000, £200,000.

Is the property price going to come down by that amount?

If you were looking at it from a purely economics perspective, maybe.

I suppose those people who are buying a £5 million property, who can afford to, say £500,000 on SDLT, can afford the £5,000 annual tax.

I guess my only thing is, I think that this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Oh, by the way, it's the beginning, isn't it?

Next year will go up next year.

Exactly.

They will look to increase it.

They might bring down the threshold, so it's not at £2 million.

So once the system's there, you can change those thresholds very easily.

And it just seems like a little tweak because it's already in the system.

It's interesting.

Very true.

But I don't, you know, certainly I don't see a Labour government going back on that.

Maybe a Conservative government.

That's possibly about the time we might end up with a new government.

Government.

Yeah, true.

It also doesn't bring in very much at this level.

It brings in 0.5 billion into the 26 billion that she has, you know, increased taxes by.

So it's not a huge amount, which.

Which is what we've been suffering from all along.

If you, if you rule out the three major taxes and go and look at a pie chart, when I mean three major taxes, I can't remember, you're talking about almost all the tax comes from vat, income tax, incorporation tax.

And you say, well, we're not going to fiddle with those, although they have by freezing by the thresholds and whatever you've got to do.

All these little twiddling and all these little twiddling changes people's decisions.

Not all of them, but some of them.

And, and you know, you want the economy, you want people to be buying, selling things.

It's like when people go, well, I think capital gains tax is shame as income tax.

It's like, what are you talking about?

No one will sell anything because I don't have to sell it when I. I have to work, I have to earn money.

But if I sit on an asset and you're telling me I'm going to be taxed at 50, I will not sell it.

Why would I sell it?

It doesn't make any sense.

I'm going to lose half my money.

Money, what's the point, you know?

So I mean I think all these little twiddles around the edges but I think to our positive initial point they could have made bigger changes, I guess.

Yeah.

What else on personal tax we've got saving tax rate was increased by 2%, dividend tax rates gone up.

What else would we say for individuals?

I mean, I mean the big changes were obviously in the last budget, weren't they, rather than this one.

So this is just the tweaking the edges.

That last budget, changing the basis of inheritance tax, changing our non dom regime was so huge and I think there was a bit of concern that those were going to change again and just make the situation so complex for people that no one had a chance of understanding the rules themselves.

In a way I'm quite glad they've not made too many changes to the individual because those changes previously was just so big, kept us all up, up many, many sleepless nights wondering how these are going to impact our clients.

I think it's quite a sigh of relief I imagine for most individuals actually this budget hasn't changed things too significantly.

There's all this stuff generally for tax advisors about.

I mean I think this word tax avoidance is so abused it's sickening as a tax person because tax avoidance is putting money in your pension scheme.

Tax avoidance is eis, although they changed.

The lingo over the years.

I'm sure when I did my exams, tax evasion.

I don't know who's done it but they've basically got.

Now it's tax mitigation.

Yeah.

They've got the pub, they've got the public to believe that tax avoidance is this terrible sin when it is something that is based on measures they're trying to encourage people to do.

Now what they really mean is advisors and people out there sending selling tax.

Schemes, which is a very different thing.

Which is again illegal really when you look at them, you.

We've all seen them and was.

Back in the day people were selling films, film things and stuff and they would come and present it to us and big, big people were involved but we as a medium sized firm would sit there as tax advice.

That doesn't make any sense.

You know, if the revenue look at this, they're going to rip it apart.

Which they did because it was all sort of circular and there's a rule about a scheme of arrangements for the main purposes avoiding tax well, they were all that.

And I think what the, what the, really what they mean by tax avoidance isn't, isn't what we really mean by, you know, organizing fraudulent stuff, isn't it?

It's just taking the piss.

Yeah, basically.

And they' try and clamp down more and advisors are doing it.

But look, all I would say is if anyone's offering you something that is really complicated and it ends up with some tax benefit and that is its purpose, it's dodgy because it has to have a commercial aim or it needs to be something very legitimate like a pension or an EIS investment.

The standard tools of trade that we have.

There are occasionally things you can do that, you know, I take the view, don't be stupid with tax, but don't be too clever.

It's like don't arrange your affairs in a dumb way.

That's just going to, you know, maximize tax at every turn.

But there are very few things we can do.

I think actually one of the things that's quite interesting that this budget, particularly with these changes to the EOT Trust as an example, people are coming up with ways to get around rule changes and then the next budget stops you being able to do just that.

So the salary sacrifice with the nic, the employee ownership contrast with the bpr.

I think my kind of take home is don't make it too complicated because if there is an obvious way around attacks, believe me, they know about it.

They might not know about it straight away, but they'll find out HMRC I'm talking about, and then put in rules to stop you being able to do that.

So not only have you then paid to get it in this complex structure, you've then got to pay to get it out of this complex structure potentially.

And I think, you know, in, in the accounting world, a lot of people were saying before this budget, actually maybe the best advice to people at this point is do nothing.

And I don't want to say that as a tax advisor, but that was some, that was the right answer, it seems.

I think that was the right answer, that it would have been bad.

But I think, look, what would we say to an individual?

We would want to get the basics right, wouldn't we Jen?

We want to say, well, have you got a will?

Have you done your power of attorney?

Have you got life insurance?

Have you planned what's going on with your business?

You can only look a couple of years ahead as a tax advisor.

People are like, well, is this future proof?

I mean, that was last.

It makes me laugh When a client asks that, and I'll be like, absolutely, absolutely not.

You know, we have no idea what next year's hold, but we've, we've done what we can with the rules within reason and, and base it on what matters, isn't it?

It's like when we talked before about trusts.

It's like, don't set a trust up for tax reasons.

Do it because there's a real reason you're trying to give money to your grandchildren and, you know, skip a generation or.

I mean, what would you feel about it?

I would complete.

I would say don't let the.

Tax the dog.

Yeah.

Tax, tail, wax dog.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Because we, we can only tell clients what the rules are at the moment.

I never.

I hate when people come to me with speculation about taxes, you know, and they're thinking the amount of times, every time before a budget, everybody is worried about CGT increases and they want to sell all of their assets.

I'm sort of like, let's.

We can't speculate.

Nobody has a crystal ball.

So as you say, let's put in place a will for you, make sure your family is protected.

Put in place life insurance.

Insurance, do all of those things so that the people that you care about are protected.

And life insurance is tax free.

If you do it correctly, you can, you know, roughly speaking, you could pay, say, 50 pound a month.

That might give you half a million pounds of protection.

If you drop dead tomorrow, your partner.

Or whoever's, it's free of inheritance tax.

Free of inheritance.

It's outside of your estate.

So.

Yeah, so they're going to get the half million pounds.

They're going through grief of the loss of you.

These things matter.

Yeah.

And you should really, if you have anyone that depends on you, whether it be a partner, kids, whatever, you should have life insurance.

Yeah, I just, it's.

I know we don't like insurance, but this is a simple thing you can do and, and get your affairs organized because that's what your family appreciate, isn't it?

I think, I think UK Limiteds are here to stay.

They're an incredible entity and the government's not putting the tax on it.

So the UK Limited does present a useful tool for us to consider how to arrange your affairs sometimes in terms of your business and your life.

But yeah, just get the basics right.

Get someone like Gemma to help you or get, get it right.

Right.

And just leave a tidy situation for your family and review it ever so often, really.

I mean, how often should you review.

These things, I usually say, so review these things whenever a life change happens.

So if you are getting married or you're getting a divorce or if you have children, like, if you have, you know, don't have children, then you have children.

Get these things reviewed because things will change.

And then I would get them reviewed every five to ten years in case there have been tax changes.

Because, for example, in the past you couldn't pass your nil rate ban between one spouse and another.

So the £325,000 per person, you couldn't pass it between spouses.

So loads of wills were set up based on that.

You know, things do change and so they do need to, I think, particularly.

Given that last budget we had.

Not this one just now, but the one before.

The advice would be to review your situation after a big tax change like that.

Exactly, yeah.

Keep it simple.

Simple though, you know, don't do.

And if anyone's trying to sell you anything, that's.

Oh, yeah, but they've said if I do.

You're watching these people on Tick Tock and stuff.

We were talking about doing a takedown.

There are loads of these people out there.

Let me explain something to you.

If someone doesn't have the premium tax qualification in the uk, it's called a Chartered Tax Advisor, a cta, there are other qualifications, like the step qualification that Gemma has or the, you know, various other qualifications that people have.

But if you're receiving advice for someone who is.

If they're not a Chartered accountant at all, I mean, get out.

I think.

Well, you've got lawyers who know a lot about tax, but, you know, someone really needs to know their onions and what you want to see as a CTA or something, that is that, you know, that they're going to know a reasonable amount of tax.

There are people on Tik Tok, there's a guy who's an estate agent out there talking about.

Yeah, talking about also.

Anyway, just don't believe the crap on social media.

There's all sorts of.

Oh, if you do this, it's.

It's bollocks.

Most of it or a lot of it.

Yeah.

So I think, I mean, that's slightly.

Slightly angry.

End to the personal tax.

Sorry about that.

So let's just do.

Finally, on a foreigner who's come here.

So the situation is a little bit unusual now.

Do you want to just explain what.

What it means?

Yeah.

So we're now in four year fig regime, the foreign income and gains regime, which a lot of people are banding about, as you know.

Making the UK a tax tax haven for four years, which it essentially is.

So if you now have not been in the UK for 10 previous tax years, and so this does equally apply to those people that were in the uk, if you haven't been a tax resident to be tax resident for 10 years, so you've not been in the UK for 10 years and thus you are not UK tax resident for those 10 years, then when you come to the UK now you have four years of foreign income and game regime, which means, means you're taxable just on your UK source income and not foreign income and gains, which is a similar position to the previous non dom regime.

However, they were not allowed to bring money into the UK that had not previously been taxed without a further tax charge, a remittance that has fallen away entirely.

So now you're free to bring your money into the UK when you come, there's no further tax on it.

The first is brilliant.

You can earn as much as you want.

That's not connected to your UK activity or UK assets.

You can earn as much as you want.

You may not have to pay tax overseas because you can enter the UK and become tax resident here.

Brilliant.

For four years.

But after four years it falls away.

You're into worldwide, which obviously the US citizens are used to.

And actually I found out the other day there's one other country that does worldwide tax somewhere in Africa.

Eritrea.

Yeah.

For your next pub quiz.

So, yeah, they're the only two nations that do worldwide tax.

It's.

So they base it on citizenship and effect.

Well, no, because if people then leave, they're not subject to worldwide tax.

True.

So.

So we deal with a lot of the US clients and, and this position, this doesn't really change their position that much because they're used to worldwide tax anyway and we've got a good system of foreign tax credits.

But for those coming from Australia, New Zealand, other places, this will impact them because after four years they're suddenly in worldwide tax and there's nothing you can can do to stop that.

That is happening.

Whereas previously you could pay a charge and still remain just in UK source.

Forget about words like domicile, forget about it, it's all gone.

It's made our lives.

Well as tax advisors, we can't forget about it.

But for those coming to the uk, because now we've got so many different.

Period, four years, anyone thinks, oh, that's not fair, honestly, other countries have much better offers Portugal, Greece, Italy, just to name some in Europe, you know, I mean, Everybody, everywhere.

Now the, the secondary problem though is it is hard to get a visa, you know the secondary problem.

So, oh, you got your, you know, there's lots of people who'd love to come here.

We have no investor visa.

You've really got to come and.

Which is a visa.

If you're wealthy, you've really got to start a business.

A lot of the people aren't starting businesses.

So there's a visa problem.

But we can help with that.

If you need help at Uri Clark as well, we do Immigration, but first four years brilliant.

After four years worldwide tax and then.

At 10 years, at 10 years full inheritance tax.

So that is the kicker for most people.

As I said, with foreign tax credits you can, you can get away with years five to nine not being too painful.

If you structure things right.

Once you're in full inheritance tax there is not a lot you can do.

At that point and there's a tail.

So this is when you want to know why lots of foreigners.

Because basically let's use that rather than their non doms or saying people who are from overseas who've been in the UK they've might be in being here 10 years, 15 years, you know, they love London or they love the uk they're now suddenly being told you are subject to worldwide inheritance tax.

Inheritance tax is unusual globally.

There aren't masses of countries who do it and they're like what?

And they have to leave a lot of them, they.

Because it's just, you're saying, well hang on, if I drop dead or everything.

I've got certainly subject to inheritance tax of 40 everything worldwide.

And historically we, what we were able to do for those who were internationals coming over to the UK they could set up trusts before they became domiciled, before they entered.

They could basically just before they go through the gates of the UK they could set up what's called an excluded property trust, put all their foreign stuff in it and that would be.

And that would be protected from UK inheritance tax.

Which makes sense.

They're coming from abroad.

They were never expecting to pay inheritance tax on their foreign assets, on their.

Previously created assets, which other countries attacked before people get upset, you know, they come from somewhere, they taxed it, they're entering our system and it encouraged people to come here.

They've bust that all up.

Yeah.

So now if, if one of those settlers who settled one of those trusts come to the UK is here for 10 years, that trust becomes subject, everything within that trust becomes subject to UK inheritance tax as well.

Which again People think, yeah, good.

No, they will leave you want.

I mean, I laugh because the most unpopular people in the country at the moment are immigrants and rich people.

So God forbid you are a rich immigrant, which, by the way, we want.

Exactly what we want.

It's exactly what we want.

Thank you, Gemma.

Thank you, Emma.

You've been absolutely brilliant.

Very, very good.

Any final thoughts?

Good.

Overall, I think it's good that they didn't, they didn't change too much.

It was nowhere near as bad as I was expecting.

The budget.

Yes.

I would say slightly anti climatic in, in certain ways.

I think the preamble and all the hype was so down.

I was expecting this to have far bigger changes than it has.

So I'm actually quite relieved that it hasn't been huge wholesale.

Please start helping SMEs Rachel Rees.

Alex, please, please tell her to sort it out.

And Rachel, please be a bit jollier.

I mean it's just too angry the whole time.

And please help us attract international businesses to the uk, because that is what we're trying to do.

Yes.

And it's enormously good for our economy.

Whether you believe that or not, that's up to you.

Thank you so much.

That has been an episode of Tax.

We're without the bullshit.

Hopefully.

Hopefully that made some sense.

Any questions?

We're here to help.

Anytime.

Take care.