You're curious, I guess about people?

Yeah.

What do you say to.

I'm going to get really granular here.

You go up to them and what do you do?

I normally wait for people to come up to me.

Really?

Yeah.

You just stand there?

I stand there with confidence.

That's a great technique because going up to people is so terrifying.

And you find if you just stand.

And wait, I mean, there's a trick that somebody told me, not that I use it, it's going up to odd numbers.

So if you've got three people walking, join in there.

That's a great tip.

It.

Today we've got a founder who built a 60 person logistics group, acquired two companies, launched a cricket farming business.

That's Cricket the insect.

And he is the most impressive networker I've ever met in the wild.

Our teacher this week, it's Daniel Levan Harris, founder of Mango Logistics Group and co founder of Edible.

A man who calls dyslexia his superpower and networking his survival tool.

Daniel, welcome to the podcast.

A teacher.

Well, thank you.

I love being described as a teacher.

Yeah, well, this is business without bs.

Now you know the alternative mba.

So you're here to learn from.

And Daniel, it may surprise you, you've learned a few things that you could.

Teach us all with, who knows?

We'll try, we'll try.

Well, well, let's start with Mango.

I mean, listen, you built a logistics business.

I don't.

That's a pretty tough industry.

Let's not, let's not underestimate it.

Anyone who knows anything about logistics, I mean, it's not an industry people run into.

You've got 60 people, it's well known if you're in London, Mango, very sort of recognizable branding.

Let's start there.

I mean, why, why even did you go into logistics?

What was that about?

I fell into it.

I grew up in Tel Aviv racing high performance sailing boats.

Came back, thought I was going to be a sailor the rest of my life.

I didn't know you grew up in Tel Aviv.

Yeah, and then my uncle had a logistics business.

So he saw me not doing much.

He says, come and work for me in sales.

He had a cab and courier business.

So I, I cut my teeth there, did my apprentice years there through my twenties and then come he had a cab, cabs and couriers.

So a bit like Addison Lee.

Yeah, okay.

That type of thing.

Not that I want to mention them right here.

Yeah, but yeah, executive cabs way before Uber where you could book like business could book clubs, take the cab Their staff home.

Yes.

For those young out there, they don't remember this wonderful world of picking up a telephone.

Yeah, Mini cabs.

Mini cabs.

Mini cabs.

Mini cabs.

But yeah, executive business, mini cabs.

And that's where I learned my trade is in sales and winning clients and, and when that's what I took into my next business basically.

And what's the most sort of out of that?

Let's just lean into this networking thing a little bit.

What's the most significant networking move that helped you get there, you think?

I think I met my wife but.

Just with your money.

Wasn't my wife straight away.

I had to go, she had to, she became my lawyer first.

You met your wife?

Jokes aside, I met my wife networking.

So I guess that's the most significant thing because I've, I've got a family from it and a lawyer, an in house lawyer all the time.

But yeah, she started off as my lawyer.

Obviously she needed a courier.

I'm not sure if she really needed that courier or not.

But yeah, that's that, that's where we set up.

Well, let me give this some context everyone.

Me and Daniel have known each other quite a while and we organized this occasional lunch, you know, under the, under the maxim even of business without BS and I, we recently did one and you invited such an incredible group of entrepreneurs, Daniel.

I thought just what an amazing variety of people, every single one of them.

I said, oh, how do you know?

Daniel said, I met him networking.

Now in my experience in my life I have never, I don't think I've ever met anyone networking.

I'm actually close friends with or no, I mean I excuse you if you're out there, you know, I'm sure.

No, I could think of, yeah, I could think of Duncan, you know, pick up Duncan.

But like there's so few.

And I was like that's phenomenal because everybody has to go to networking.

Everyone has to walk into these rooms full of people.

It's terrifying.

I used to drink very heavily and talk very strangely and people used to find me very odd.

But you know, it's, I think it's one of them.

And we've actually concluded in this business and I think a lot of businesses include conclude that networking is not actually that valuable to them, but it's better than nothing.

Wow.

Yeah, wow.

Whereas you were like as I say everyone single person in this room.

We must have been 20amazing entrepreneurs all met you networking.

And I was just like Daniel, we need to talk about this.

So tell, so tell.

Me, I think it starts off with, I love meeting new people and I don't see it as part of my role or job.

I don't have to report back to, you know, anybody else on how many people I met at a networking event.

And I just see it as making new friends.

But I guess new friends in business and I just keep in touch with people alike.

So even if they might be advantageous, if I can't see a commonality, I don't tend to keep in touch with them.

So a lot of those people you might have met are now networking friends or they've become great friends in a way, but I never saw them as a pound sign.

So I think building relationships with people in business, that's where the fruits have come from.

From them referring me or recommending me over the years to their contacts.

And I just think it's a web effect.

Do you know, do you know?

It's.

I mean, let's just be clear.

This is networking.

Like walking into a room with 100 people in it.

That kind of networking.

Is that what we're talking about?

Often.

And you don't, you don't find that intimidating?

Not at all.

That's just.

That is a superpower in there.

I mean, is it also, and I mean this with respect, you're a foreigner.

You're an immigrant.

You've come in.

Yeah, I can't think of a polite.

What's the polite word?

Down.

I'm not a foreigner.

Yeah, well, you're not.

I do, I'm very surprised, you know, here you even grew up in Tel Aviv, but that you had to, you know, you entered London like most people.

Let's, let's forget you come from Tel Aviv.

If you come to London, you need to meet people.

I probably didn't frame that well early.

I was born here.

My family all English.

Okay.

I went to live there with my dad.

Okay, fine, fine.

But my teenage years, I was in television.

Let's cross that out.

But that, that suggests a sense of confidence that you have that many don't many?

Almost universally, I believe.

Yeah.

But I'm good looking.

I'm six foot.

So.

So it helps you walk into a room and you get recognized straight away and.

No, I'm neither of those, unfortunately.

No, I'm good looking, but I'm not.

I, I don't know what it is.

I, I don't.

You not find it.

You, you don't find strangers scary or talk you, you know, sort of walking up.

I talk to everybody.

I love talking to people.

I love Asking questions and finding out about people and not loaded questions.

I generally like meeting and finding out about people.

And there was a bit you said that I loved that I didn't see them as.

I never saw them as a pound.

And that's a really interesting thing because I think most people get thrown into networking.

Let's just use a lawyer.

You're a lawyer.

You need to go get clients, go out and meet people.

Well, you know, maybe, maybe I'm come from a warp profession.

Because accounting, the last people anyone wants to meet is an accountant.

The moment you say you're an accountant, they get, they just like, you can see their face drop.

You're not walking up to them and saying, oh, I'm a mountaineer or I'm a, you know, Olympic champion.

You're just sort of.

And they're thinking, oh, he's going to sell to me.

But I think we're.

Our friendship is a prime example.

You know, we've known each other a very, very long time.

I recently become a client.

We're meant to do this podcast.

Well before I was a client.

So it's not, it's.

That's not the reason you brought me on here today.

I, I generally go into a room and just want to meet people.

I don't feel I have to go back or leave that event and go, I've got five clients out that.

Yes.

It's more like, you know what, that Andy was a good bloke.

I'd love to meet him again for a coffee.

And you're curious, I guess, about people.

Yeah, I just.

What do you, what do you say to.

I'm going to get really granular here.

You go up to them and what do you do?

I normally wait for people to come up to me.

Really?

Yeah.

You just stand there.

I stand there with confidence.

That's a great technique because going up to people, so terrifying.

You find if you just stand and wait.

I mean, it's a trick that somebody told me, not that I use it.

It's going to go up to odd numbers.

If you've got three people talking, join in there.

That's a great tip because there's always one that's just standing there nodding.

So approach the people with an odd number.

That's a great tip.

And then I think you've said two really crucial things there.

Don't go up with, I've got to get something out of this and I've got.

I've got to get them to buy something from me.

Just go up and be curious.

But it's other thing is not looking at any of them as customers or clients or anything.

Just look at them as people.

I want humans I want to get to know.

So you know, you and I have got to know each other very well over the years.

I've recommended some clients to you, you've recommended some clients to me.

This is well before I was a client of yours because you and I have built a relationship.

What happens when you get so I never came in.

Gone.

Oh, he's an accountant.

Oh my God.

And we would, we, we were connected through our friend Tom.

What, what happens when you get stuck?

So, okay, so I've walked up to three people.

Yep.

Split off.

I'm an accountant.

This happens to you.

And the other person says what you do.

I'm an accountant, he's a competitor.

It's like, do you just say, but your, your view is I'm not there for the pound symbol, so I'm just interested in him as a human now or her.

I mean in the competitors.

I mean, I'm sure you done work with other accountants before.

Yeah, it's just on calls with them.

I don't know.

I've come up with a trick now that I've never thought of before.

Drop a 50 pound note on the floor and say, oh, who's this belong to?

And then they'll talk to you.

I, I, I, do you know what?

I never got stuck.

I don't feel I ever get.

But you need to keep moving around a room, don't you?

I think that's, that's a mistake people always make.

They feel it's a number game and they feel they need to talk to everybody in the room.

And, and I use the word collecting business cards.

Not that in this day and age.

People got, they're coming back, they're coming back.

Right.

So I don't feel I have to collect X amount of business cards.

I feel if I could get into a room and I've found one person that I enjoy the conversation with them, I might just talk to that one person whole way through the networking event.

That's such a good point.

That was a really simple good point.

Uh, I mean, if you're getting bored to death, you might come up, I'll go into the toilet or I need to get another drink or something, I guess.

Absolutely.

If you're stuck with somebody.

Because I'm not enjoying the conversation.

Yes.

And I feel I can't talk to anybody else, but if I am enjoying the conversation, I'll carry on that conversation.

I might Even the, the thing is is to, to organize a meet up again or follow up after the events and meet up for coffee.

So that's, that's where the, the value is, is not necessarily the day the networking event is connecting on LinkedIn or dropping an email and, and then looking to connect afterwards again over a coffee.

And there's that difference, isn't it?

That second time you meet someone is such a different experience, isn't it?

It's a sort of first time, there's a sort of.

But the second time trust.

Trust us, you know.

Absolutely.

But you, you could meet them in the evening with a few drinks and then you organize to meet them in the daytime for a coffee.

So it, those two different locations, time of day make a big difference to the type of person person they might feel different when you meet them a second time.

A bit more relaxed possibly.

Coffees and beers do different things.

Yes, they do.

Well I think what I was thinking of is a similar thing.

It's like I would never when I first meet a client, say let's go to the pub, let's have lunch.

You know, that's not day one and that's not how British society works as we both know.

It's like no, let's meet, you know, short, formal, casual, you know, just sort of like let's just touch base, isn't it?

And then meeting number two is, let's go a little bit deeper.

Meeting number three, maybe there's something else going on and then it's meeting four or something.

You're like why don't we just have a pint, you know, I've got no.

Problem doing that straight up because I like meeting people.

I love coffee, don't mind odd beer here and there, but I can drink lots of coffee throughout the day.

I'm up for coffee meetings, that's my job.

I'm a CEO.

I'm Chief Coffee Officer.

Oh, how interesting.

So do you almost see that as.

What do you think being a CEO is then?

What, what are you your, your CEO of?

Let's get you clear a little bit.

You've got Mango Logistics and you're also CEO of Edible, aren't you?

Co CEO of Edible Co CEO.

Which is unusual for and Edible.

Just give a quick explanation of Edible Edible.

We are the leading innovator in indoor growing of crickets for human consumption in.

The UK and crickets are particularly a sort of, I don't say apex predator, a well chosen insect for human consumption.

It's probably first adopted insect for people trying insects as A nutrition.

But it's.

It's a superfood.

Yes, a real superfood.

So it's got 60 to 70% protein.

Take beef, that's 30 to 35%.

So double amount of protein, more omega 3 than salmon, more calcium than milk, more potassium than bananas.

Like our own.

Yeah.

Nice.

And we'll talk more.

We'll talk more about edible.

So there's an interesting example.

Your CEO and co. CEO and Chief Coffee Officer is almost how you position it, I. E. It's your job to build relationships.

Is it?

Yes.

And that could be with suppliers, partners or customers.

Yeah.

And what else?

I mean, it's every CEO to work on the business.

And I think a CEO that doesn't look at partnerships, wherever those partnerships are, is.

Is missing a big part of their job role.

What's the other important thing the CEO has to do?

Strategy.

Strat.

Where are we going?

Vision.

Strategy.

Vision.

Strategy.

Innovation.

Innovation comes from the whole team, not just the.

The CEO, but the CEO needs to lead that.

That.

And part of that comes from meeting and talking to people and exploring, isn't it?

Find out what other people are doing their businesses.

If you, if you're, if you're just in your business, locked in, you're not knowing what's going on.

It's all very well reading up about these things on.

You want to hear somebody's got got scars and done it themselves and yeah, that's how you find out about new innovation.

I feel it's like, you know, I could be a bad listener at times, but I feel it's like that if you just, if you just listen to people and let them talk, it's.

It's amazing how much that helps you understand the world.

You just sort of ask a question and I think probably it's a dyslexic thing, maybe.

I don't know.

But, you know, halfway through, you sometimes think, oh, I know where this is going, or something like that, but.

And then I've got better as I got older, saying, yeah, just let's see where this is going.

And so often it's like, oh, that's an interesting.

Just a small little piece of information, isn't it?

And it sort of goes in the brain and you think that's helped me a little bit.

It could be nothing related and just something.

A word they use just triggers something.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

It's a sort of.

So the CEOs responsible for strategy and vision and innovation, and one of the ways that it can fulfill that strategy as a CEO is by Ensuring that they have a deep and extensive network of people who he can build truck he, she can build trusting relationships with to get valuable information.

I guess that is just one way but yeah, it's a, it's a major way.

And yeah, I think I could call you and ask you some tax question once in a while as well.

So I have over the years, even though you weren't my accountant at some stage.

What about being a co CEO?

How does that change things?

That's unusual.

Ish, Very unusual.

It really works for my co founder.

Jeff and I, we've got a great relationship.

He is brilliant stuff.

I'm terrible at and vice of, you know, he's brilliant at everything.

But I, I compliment elements.

What's his strengths and your strengths?

I, I would say I'm very much more outgoing.

I, I've got no problem opening doors.

I've got no problem picking the phone up.

I can knock doors down.

I can connect dots.

He's definitely a lot more analytical than I am.

The man's a doctor of aerospace engineering so he's got far more skills than I have.

Do you think it's lonely being a CEO?

I don't know if lonely is the right word because you build a great team around you.

But yeah, it is lonely.

I mean you go out and you meet people and you have these conversations.

Do, does a CEO do.

Is it important that some of these relationships is it?

But maybe a better way of saying is it.

Is it better to have lots of relationships which you're tapping all the time or a smaller group that you share.

More with or what have you got the capacity for?

I mean starting relationships and dropping them is, is, is, is.

There's no point doing that.

So it's making sure you've got the right contacts and you stay in contact with people and you remember their strengths and weaknesses.

And I guess due to my dyslexic brain, I've got a little bit of a good filing system, the older roller deck type of thing in my head.

So I know what industries people are in and I know where to tap into.

But that's based on a strength which is my memory and how I file people.

Let's talk about dyslexic.

So what, the dyslexic brain has better memory, does it?

A different memory?

I wouldn't say better.

A better in different ways.

How does it, how does it work for you?

Do you fit?

Do you feel?

I mean.

Yeah.

How does it.

What's different about it?

I will.

You're wearing a Yellow watch.

That could trigger something in my, in my memory going I haven't called that person from yellow.

Yellow watch, Yellow storage.

Yeah.

Or it'll trigger something.

So.

Oh, your competitor.

Yeah, sorry about that.

That's fine.

So it's, things like that will just trigger something and I'll ask like my, my PA sometimes what happened with that situation with John and she goes how do you remember that?

And let's go it something triggered my memory.

When did you find out you were dyslexic?

When I was terrible at school and eventually at 16 I was so terrible they had to put me for an assessment.

That was a long time.

You're the same age as me.

I'm 48.

What are you a little bit older?

52.

Yes, that would make sense because I,.

Nobody knew what dyslexia.

I was appraised.

When I was appraised I was 13 years old and it was absolute cutting edge.

They didn't know what it was.

There was the Hornsby center in London, I don't know up there and they would give you a six hour IQ test and they would look for anonymous in your IQ and they would say well you're perfectly clever over here but your spelling age is that.

I think my spelling age at the time was of a seven year old or something and they were like well that doesn't make sense.

You spell like a 7 year old and you're 13 and that was all kid and had lunch and it took ages and then they sort of wrote this report and they didn't know what it was.

They just knew that there were kids that were not unable but had these weak spots and they would look for them.

Is that the sort of thing you went through?

It was.

But the only thing I would say is every dyslexic is completely different and that's.

And that's where they, you struggle.

So rather than is one in ten people are dyslexic.

And the thing is, is not all.

If you take all those ones, everyone's got a different dyslexia.

So sometimes it's a visual.

Yes.

The letters jump around and they can't quite see the word.

And sometimes it's all mine's oral.

So if I, if I can't hear the, the short vowels very well.

Serious.

Yeah.

So to me I'll write something, I'll put a U instead of an E just because I can't hear it.

So that's how it affects me my understanding of dyslexia.

Now they understand it is one way to simply put, it is.

We all think in pictures and we all think in words and it.

Dyslexic tends to think in pictures.

You're absolutely right that there was some.

One of the reasons, apparently, they couldn't work out dyslexia was that there's about 5% of dyslexics who actually have a visual dyslexia.

They wear glasses a little bit like I have, because that's the.

When you hold a piece of paper, the bit of the brain that keeps your eyes steady so you can read, that's malfunctioning.

So it's not.

It's not dyslexia like you and me have, it's a completely.

It's a visual impairment.

You put on these funny glasses and suddenly you can do.

That is definitely not what I've got.

Yeah.

And that was the reason, apparently.

That was one of the main reasons they were struggling so much to diagnose what it was, because it's throwing them completely.

Then the one, you and me, like, they have the normal dyslexia.

And you're right, there are weird types of dyslexia and they exhibit in different ways.

And you have number dyslexia words, but ultimately you.

We see in pictures more than we see in words.

And that's how our brain leans, apparently.

I would look at it differently, probably a few hundred years ago, where nobody could read and write, our skill sets would have been very different and possibly more important.

Hunter Garrett there is seeing things differently, seeing patterns and pictures.

Like you say, we.

We might have been, you know, king of the jungles back then with the.

The dyslexics.

It's just the structure of the education system that we've got today from Victorian times doesn't suit dyslexics.

Yeah, it's come in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's.

They educate for the masses, not for the.

The one.

So if you.

If you took a dyslexic very early on and found out the correct way of teaching them, they'd be untouchable.

So I'll give you an example.

My grandmother's phone number.

I couldn't remember it for years, and then one day I looked at it and gone, why has nobody broken it down differently?

The way I remembered it was 989-898 and just put a six on the end.

Oh, yeah.

But people remember digit phone numbers in 3, 3, a 3 and then a 4.

And I could.

I always struggled with it until I broke it down differently.

Now, if I was taught to break everything down differently like that, I could have probably remembered things better.

So it's a memory thing.

So I've got a strong memory and a weak memory.

So my short term memory isn't great.

So if you relate a number down said, repeat that, I'll probably forget that.

Do you know, my dear sister, bless, bless.

Julia, he's no longer with us, but when she went to university, Buckingham, she did law and she was doing, she's dyslexic.

My whole family are basically.

But she was doing terribly and she was in a state and she was just so struggling with it.

And I can't remember those stories yet.

I've got it recorded somewhere about why.

But she suddenly started drawing pictures, I think, I think someone drew a picture and she could, she remembered it and she was like, right, that's what I'm going to do.

So she took all her textbooks and drew pictures all around her little study room at university, everywhere.

And suddenly she started to flourish.

You know, it was that, that, you know, we learn differently.

And I think if you are dyslexic, I think, I think, I think that's it.

There's always a way, just like you say with a phone number for you to get this information in your head.

And I would say with the dyslexics, once we have it in our head, once we see it clearly, we never forget it.

It's almost like, it's like that is exactly.

And that's why I asked you before we started the podcast, you just mentioned about Juliet putting pictures everywhere.

I asked you about mind mapping because.

Yeah, yeah, there's a mind map on.

The table and, and I, I, I've never done that.

It's always something I've meant to do.

But I think mind mapping works well with dyslexia.

That's what she did.

She basically did mind maps of law and just, she had all these textbooks with layers and you can imagine all the lawyers are lawyers.

And it's, we had a chat working here before it was dyslexic.

And you don't meet many dyslexic lawyers for the obvious reason.

It's not exactly like something they go into.

But, but Julia was passionate about the law and human rights and stuff and so on, but then was hit with this wall of like.

And then just exactly worked out she could mind map it and sort of go, okay, well this subject's this and these are the points it's trying to make.

And you, and you remember this this, it's a picture.

It's a shape, isn't it?

You know, I mean, why do you.

It's interesting when you bring up dyslexia that it's, it's, it's, it's an advantage as it was.

But what it, what did it change about how you are as a business person that you, you, you, you, you feel was valuable?

I guess I think the major thing is delegation.

But delegation isn't a matter of just offloading all your work to everybody.

It's about finding the right people for the right thing to delegate to them.

And I think that comes from probably finding the kid that was good at English, the kid that was good at Mass.

At school, one needed a bit of protection and the other one needed some sandwiches.

And I guess from early on I was already bartering.

I'm so with you.

We're so used to getting things wrong.

We, we learned from an early age.

I need help.

Yeah.

You know, I can't.

I'm gonna have to get someone to help me with this.

You know, so you, you surround yourself with the right people and get really good at delegating.

And I, I think that's one of my supers powers is I'm my superpowers admitting my weaknesses.

Yes.

And, and rather than trying to, you know, you can't fix, get better at them, I just delegate to somebody that I know is better at this sort of stuff.

So I could go on an Excel course and do pivot tables or I just pass it to somebody who really knows how to do pivot tables now with AI.

Happy days.

But yeah, I think delegation is probably my suit, one of my superpowers.

I completely agree.

I think perfectionism and the perfectionist mind, which you and me bump into all the time, which I never understood because I've been getting red mark, you know, you, you like me.

I'm sure you'd, you do your history homework and think you've done a really good job and it just come back red with D minus like what a load of crap this was.

And he'd be so depressing because he'd be like.

But then if you reread it, you'd missed out half the wor and you were just like, oh, it's not very good actually.

I should have like that's the whole rereading.

But delegation.

Absolutely.

And I, I feel that the other one that comes up is we tend to, we tend to almost like chaos and finding the sense in it.

Don't you feel?

It's like we're good at the being lots of information and then sort of being able to sort of find something in it.

Do you feel that?

I find for me it's spotting opportunities or spotting.

Just generally spotting things that other people don't spot.

Yes.

So there's a lot that just passes me by, but there's a lot of things that I spot that considering how many people around me don't see it.

I find that sometimes bit that weird sometimes.

Yeah.

It's like, has nobody noticed that that was sitting there or.

Yes.

Or why have we not.

Why are we doing it that way?

So I think it's an inquisitive brain or sometimes a naive brain to ask questions but spot things that are not right.

Indeed.

The other phrase.

Dyslexics often say this.

Well, if you flip it on its head, if you turn it around.

So we draw an image in our head and then have the ability to move that object around in our head.

So someone's saying the problem's like this and it's shaped like this and these are the edges.

And then we do this sort of thing of going, what's it look like the other way around?

And then you say it's lateral thinking.

They would say they were like, as you say, it almost seems obvious and then sometimes you start trying to explain it and people are like, they've quite resistant.

They're like, what?

You know, no, you know, and it's frustrating from our perspective.

You're like, no, can't you see?

Like it's the same thing.

It's that better for me.

It's when people go think outside the box.

Like, why are you in the box in the first place?

Why are you in a box?

Who's in the box?

I'm not dead, man.

I don't need to be inside a box.

I mean, we've, we've interviewed many people on this pod and you and me meet many entrepreneurs.

I think, I think it's unusual that you meet an entrepreneur who's not neurodiverse in some kind of way.

A risk taker, a dyslexic.

It's a sort of, it's part of,.

It's part of the uniform, it's part of the year.

Lovely description.

Last night I was having dinner with this lovely chap and anyway we were.

He's recently been diagnosed ADHD due to his kids and it's, it's everywhere or whatever.

But he said, if you not heard the one about the bees.

And I was like, oh no, not that.

What's about the Bees.

And he said, well, with bees, 80, 90% of them all follow each other.

They're all sheep and they do the same thing.

There's about 5 to 10% of them that don't do that.

They rebel and they go, dyslexic bees.

Yeah.

Or, or ADHD or neurodiverse bees.

All right, okay.

And that they go, well, I'm not going to go there.

I'm going to go over there, you know, I'm going to go and look at that.

Now it serves the colony because what happens is bees find a food source and they go all to it and they get all the food source.

Now if there weren't a few drifting around checking out other opportunities, then that would food source would die.

And they all go, what do we do now?

So basically you've got these ones who are sort of rebellious and don't want to follow the crowd.

And I don't know if you feel, it's like I, I, I, you know, I, I feel that's part of it.

It's almost like I don't enjoy.

I find it really hard to do what everyone else is doing.

Not to be difficult.

And sometimes I'll argue against things that maybe I don't even agree what I'm arguing, but I just.

Because everybody's got that position at time, the same table.

Do you feel that at all?

I, I think it was reflecting what I was saying earlier that I love that beast story.

It's great.

Yeah, yeah.

It makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

You can take that.

I nicked it off him.

I think it's going back to being a dyslexic.

In hunter gatherer times.

I, you know, I think they've been the same thing.

I think certain skills or attributes the dyslexics have got.

I think if we were hunting, you know, same thing.

Everybody's going over there to look for a.

What do you hunt?

A deer?

I'm gonna go over there.

Yeah.

And find something doesn't run as fast.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And the, it's, I think your hunter gatherer is a great example because I think when we look through the prism of a society now, it's quite a, you must go to work, you must have a job, you must have a kid, you must be on the tube at 9am it's all just like, you must eat.

He's in cheese and ham sandwiches.

It's very sort of prescriptive, isn't it?

Whereas that's, that's, that's not really how it is.

But it's not just that, it's also.

What did you study?

Okay, if it's maths, physics, English.

Oh, those are, those are very important degrees.

If you studied history, the art.

Yeah.

Doesn't count.

Oh, I see.

So, so it's one of those we, we elevate people based on what they have studied rather than going, the world needs dancers and the world needs computer whatever, whatever that may be.

Not everybody has to be a mass master.

So I think looking at what people study is, is where we grade people's.

Ability and let's, let's think about, you know, what we study, what we learn and stuff.

These are obviously indicators of where we are end up in, in the world of business.

Now, I don't imagine you expected to go into cricket farming particularly.

What did you study?

I was out as a beach boy racing sailing boat.

So that was it.

Yeah, that's the core, that, that's the core.

So this is a very dyslexia moment.

Cricket farming.

Yeah.

You know, in terms of like you, the, the, the bees at the moment are all eating steak and chips or they've gone vegan.

Yeah.

And you're, you've gone and buzzed around in a different area saying, oh, what about these inside insects?

Let's have a crack at them.

What's it, where's it started?

Why did this edible thing come along?

I think being logistics for many years, I mean running one business run is you always go, what's my next thing?

I don't want my legacy to be.

Yeah.

Daniel run Mango Logistics Group.

So I was always looking for something else and I could never find anything that really you felt.

I felt I was always looking for something that was environmental.

I obviously love food and, and, and the minute I found out about crickets, I started reading.

And as a dyslexic, you'll know I.

Reading slow process.

I found myself for weeks reading about crickets and I think I got to the end of those weeks and I felt that was a light bulb moment.

In terms of their nutritional value.

It wasn't that everything.

I just, I just wanted to understand and learn about not just crickets, but insects.

Insects.

And I went down a rabbit hole and I felt that I was reading more about insects in three weeks than I had about logistics in the last 10 years.

And I think that was the sign.

I'm so interested in this.

This is what I want to do.

What, but what, what did you find interesting about insects all of a sudden?

Everything.

How, you know, the, the different insects.

What, what it wasn't you weren't starting from position of this could be food.

I did put starting position this could be food.

But how valuable all the extracts are.

So the, the poo which is called frass is amazing fertilizer.

Their exoskeleton, which is like a natural plastic which is used in biopharma.

Haven't we been using these things?

It's just, it's just prejudice.

It's not, it's social conditions, it's weather and geography.

So if 2 billion people on, on earth eat insects and they happen to.

Be in Southeast Asia, in China eat them, don't they?

Because the fact, because they have a famine economy, they supposedly.

That's because they, they've had no food at times and they'll eat whatever sort of thing I.

Excuse me, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be for that they are actually an amazing nutrition.

But it's only where they grow outside in Africa.

Where's the 2 billion in Africa?

So sorry.

Southeast Asia, East Africa and parts of South America.

So Mexico is, is, is a big consumer of crickets.

Thailand, Vietnam.

Yeah.

And they have cricket farms, do they?

And it all just goes on.

Their farms are outdoors, so it's netting.

And they grow naturally outdoors because the weather's is suitable.

So what we've done here is we've pioneered growing them in replicating that weather indoors here in the UK because they need warmth.

They need warmth and they need humidity.

Well, there's some of that coming.

That's the global warming, I guess.

You know, Maybe, Yeah, maybe, maybe insect eating might move to the to Europe event.

Well, it's one.

You know, you, you sometimes you wonder why you live in this slightly cold country.

But the lack of insects is one of the attractive things, I guess.

Pay more tax.

We love it here.

Yeah, pay more tax on instead.

So you started reading about and thought.

Christ, this, this, it is very different to logistics.

It's.

It's environmentally friendly.

It's an amazing nutrition.

I also like you go to the gym regularly.

So I do look at what I eat and from a protein intake this is nothing better.

It's far better than whey protein that's ultra processed.

I mean you look at in, in cricket protein weighs cow ways ways that skimmed milk, milk and dairy keep on skimming.

I mean I was learning about this the other day.

Different countries have different tastes, don't they?

Like America loves.

We love whey protein.

America loves.

I can't remember beef bro, I come with.

There's three or four of these ones they put in the Powders?

Yeah, it's like Germany likes a different.

One to us but they're all ultra processed.

If you look at cricket protein, it's dehydrated, milled down into powder.

That's it.

That's it.

Because their whole body's protein, basically.

Calcium, calcium, a little bit of calcium, but it's got all you.

So how'd you start?

You, you've, you've read, you've been sitting there reading, thinking what's a good idea?

So I meant I met my co founder who.

Networking.

Networking.

Did you meet a networking.

I mean everybody networking.

I, I don't.

This is the thing, I don't call it networking.

Would you protect.

I just let me do something basic.

I'm 48, I ain't going out to something this evening to meet some people.

It's not happening.

Is that what you do?

Where'd you, where is these networking events?

I used to do a lot more.

Yeah.

Than, than now.

You know, I don't want to go out every night of the week.

Yeah.

I've got other things to do.

But yeah, I didn't work at the gym as well.

I mean I go to a gym with a sauna and the amount of conversations going on in the sauna.

A Fanta, it's great place to network.

Yeah.

Saunas in the gym doesn't sound right.

That's it.

He's not naked, is it?

I tend to wear something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We can't quite get to the finished level.

I don't think so.

Last night I went for a workout and a sauna and a beer with one of the members at the gym.

He's become a friend through the gym, but we had a bim, a beer there.

He's in business and we talk business all evening.

Is that networking?

I guess that's the sort of networking I can kind of handle when I hear the word networking.

I think this evening at 6:30 they've got an event with some boring speaker and they're going to hand out a half a sausage roll and a glass of champagne if you're lucky.

Maybe that's what needs changing.

Stop calling it networking.

Yeah, maybe I'm going out to meet some new business friends.

But you, you're sort of.

There's limited opportunities, aren't there?

I don't like talking to people when I exercise and stuff.

I, in a weird way I'm a bad example.

I actually don't really like strangers and it might be wired up to our tough time at school or whatever.

I don't Know, I find them, I find it very like I've.

But so that's me.

But I know from the firm here because I have to help everybody and we have to encourage them and stuff.

And maybe you've got all sorts of things going on.

You've got Covid people here, young.

You know, we got people turning up here at 18 that were training, you know, their social skills are different.

They had Covid.

They.

They're on their phones the whole time.

They network on their phones and it's like, you know, we're having to re.

Educate them.

Then you've got.

People are sort of more our age.

Once you've got young kids, it's hard to go out in the evening, isn't it?

So it's sort of.

Luckily, the one thing that's very lucky in my job is all I do is meet people in.

In a way that I either know or I need to know.

And, and so you have a real, that's a real privilege in my, in my life.

But yeah, teaching young people to go and build these relationships and we do it a lot from the sense of they need to build their confidence.

Confidence.

You.

We can't have someone in the businesses in their 30s who can't stand up in front of a room and talk or can't.

And these things are terrifying for people who can't walk into a room.

I mean this is life.

I mean, I say it's life.

I mean people meet their partners now on, on apps.

That.

That's alien to me.

I mean I used to have to go walk up, walk up to the bar or something and try and drop up one liner in or something like that.

But this is life.

You need to talk to people and, and meet people outside and so.

Well, they would.

You could debate that now.

You could debate.

Do you.

I mean, ages ago I.

You me think so, but I was years ago I had this argument with someone and they really changed my view because I was like, well, the, you know, the.

Absolutely.

We've got to get in front of somebody.

You've got to read the body language.

You've got to do.

You know, that's the only way to really.

And they were like, not for this young generation.

They would rather sit with you on Zoom with your Facebook open and your Instagram open and their Wikipedia or their internal AI open now and interact with you through that experience.

Is this the generation?

Well, I mean you could go back and back and back, but yeah, maybe.

But you know, they've been on computer games, playing headsets, talking to someone with a little screen.

Suddenly you're there in person with them.

They find that nerve wracking.

They find that terrifying.

Whereas you with me would find it very grounding one to one.

But I, I think the same with meeting people in your own age group just to make friends or networking.

You have to find the right setting.

Sometimes people prefer sitting down and it could be around a round table where everybody gets a minute to.

To introduce themselves and their business and sometimes it is a glass of wine and just cruise around a room and try and bump into somebody.

It's finding that right format to.

What drives you, Daniel, what drives you as a person.

What's important.

Family.

Yeah.

Health.

But this business thing and, and what.

Drives me because I'm feeling a sense that you go out the.

You're the dyslexic, whatever the neurodiverse be and you're.

But you're going out.

You.

You really enjoy finding these people.

You know, spending time doing it, going up to people.

This is.

That's quite exhausting.

It's quite.

There's quite a lot of effort involved in all of that.

It's emotional.

See his work.

I don't find it exhausting.

It's play to you.

It's play.

But what then for therefore underpinning this to do mango to.

You know, you've.

There's nothing wrong with it.

Although in this country we find it hard to admit.

Are you financially driven?

Are you driven to.

You know, what.

What are those?

Why is that foot coming out of the bed?

Even manga that's 22 years old now.

I still feel it's at the beginning.

Not that I necessarily want to see out the whole course, but I feel it's so much opportunity constantly.

I guess it's an opportunity and it's that grabbing onto constant opportunities and.

And those opportunities can take you down different directions.

Either with mango or edible.

I guess it's.

Yeah.

Fishing out opportunities.

Why opportunities?

Why do you need opportunities?

Opportunities to grow the business, opportunities to hire great people, opportunities to have partnerships.

But this is all this sort of.

What's that?

I, you know, underpinning this, this is a drive to build something.

I, I think it's getting away from not being behind the desk.

It's almost an escapism.

It's an escaping from sitting behind a desk and a computer, being made to read a book and read a book and instead meeting people, talking, grabbing cups of coffee.

I love coffee.

I told you that earlier.

It's that being out and about and I'm not a I'm not a sit down person.

I think that's part of adhd.

Yeah, yeah.

I, I need to be out and about.

So I've created my dream job which is doing what I enjoy doing rather than not doing what I don't enjoy doing.

That's, that's probably the motivator.

It's a bit like sometimes people, when they want to work out what to do with their life, especially when they're young, I often say to them, we'll work out what you don't want to do.

That might be easier.

And you might say, I don't, you know, I worked on a farm as one of my first jobs and after a couple of days of that, I mean, it's agony.

And I was just like, okay, I don't want to work on a farm.

I want to be inside.

I decided day one or something, you know, I want to be at least access.

You should have tried quicking farming because you are a farmer, but it's indoors and nice and warm.

Do you think?

There's an interesting point in that actually, in terms of is this going to be, I mean, not getting into the tax, which is.

God, you know, you want to.

No, I'm not going to go there.

But you know, the, the abolishment of the agricultural farming relief is one of those batshit crazy things I've ever seen, but one of the, the one.

Yeah, well, exactly.

Business, business, you know, just in that realm of business property relief and agriculture, which is all to do with inheritance tax.

And now if you build a business, you're going to get taxed on the value of it, whether you're not, you have the cash in the bank.

I mean it's just the stupidest thing ever and it's going to raise no money.

But anyway, getting off my hobby horse one, I tried to, I do try and read the Guardian, you know, try and read both sides of the fence.

One of the arguments I saw for the reason we need the agriculture, you know, we need to break up these farmers and you know that these family farms that have gone down generations are going to have to pay tax.

They can't afford and sell farms and stuff.

And they say, well, it's about time other people got access to the land.

I, I would, I would say being a farmer as a family is something you almost need to be brought up in.

It's very hard work.

It's incredibly hard.

Yeah.

And it's not something, you know, it's about time other people had access to this opportunity.

It's like, well, fill your boots.

But I wonder whether there's some upside here.

Maybe there will be more opportunity to do cricket farming.

Or I, there's advantage of cricket farming is, is it's indoors.

You know, the, the, but you need a warehouse, basically.

You need a warehouse.

So the output is regular.

Well, that connects with your logistics business, that bit.

You understand that kind of business?

Yes, it's vertical growing space, cubic space.

And you know, my business partner could, does all the automation bit.

So, yeah, it's very much a logistical play because it's all, it's all cubic space.

And how you use that cubic space.

Well, that's a really interesting overlap.

Is that what you realized when you started getting into Cricket Farm?

They were like, well, we need to do it indoors.

And you were like, what, like in a warehouse with like rats?

I've been in one of them.

Yeah, I've been in a few of those.

That, that was the overlap very much so.

I've never thought of it.

So the beauty is, and I, I, I hate going down the food security argument, but we don't grow enough of enough food to this country.

So going back to your point about screwing over the farmers, you know that nobody understands.

Most people don't understand the farming world.

It's a very unfair space.

The weather can affect a whole year for people and they could earn nothing.

And I, I think Jeremy Clarkson's done wonders for the farming industry because he's, he's shined a light on it, he's.

Shown how hard it is big time.

The farmers originally thought, oh, Jeremy Clarkson, that, that guy again.

But actually, after his first season, even farmers have gone, thank you.

You've really shown a light what, what we have.

Yeah, yeah.

With.

Which is a lot of bs, but yeah, that's one of the reasons crickets are great, because, you know, your, your output, your yield every month is, is consistent.

Cost of energy is your problem then at the moment, is it, it's one.

Of the, our bigger costs, but it's not one of our biggest costs.

And we, that's because we've been very creative with how we get our, our recycled heat from other places.

What made, what enabled you to make that leap into edible.

I mean, you're sitting on a sofa thinking, oh, insects are interesting.

I found it so interesting and I, I just called up my now co founder and going, I'm on in.

And I had, he'd already started a business.

He, he already had protein bars.

They were importing the cricket powder from Southeast Asia, having it move, moved here to make a protein bar here.

So approach him.

After a few weeks of reading about insects and how much I wanted in on this game and I've gone, why are you bringing protein powder all the way from Thailand?

And that was my naivety not realizing you can't grow crickets in the UK that easily.

And I guess my naivety then started us working together for a business plan going, actually, we can grow them here and the UK has got some of the most stringent, you know, animal protection food and food quality, food quality in the world.

So that's one of the reasons we grow them here, is because we want to sell them here and people want to be able to see all the traceability and track back how they've grown, where they've grown.

Is it fair to say with insects we don't have to worry about, you know, they need to be free range insects or.

To some extent.

Yeah, that's what an insect thinks, is that.

Yeah, I mean they're all organic.

I guess they are free range in, in their growing, their growing box.

They like, they like being cooped up.

They like.

Do they?

Yeah, they like dark, they like humid, they like heat.

Is that how crickets live?

Crickets live outside.

Yeah.

Jump around in a field.

Yeah.

But you hear them only when, when the, when the sun goes down.

So they like a dark.

But why do they.

They don't want to be cooped up in a box, do they?

In a little there.

No, they, they like dark and dark and, and, and tight spots and just to be silly.

Do animal rights apply to crickets?

Absolutely.

But we keep them, we grow them very, very ethically.

They've got a very good life.

Yeah, no, I'm sure they do.

I'm sort of trying to get my head around it because it's a bit like.

There's a wonderful example.

I don't know, you know, it.

So chickens, people are like, oh, they don't want to be inside, in this warehouse.

They need to be outside.

They, you know, chickens want to be outside.

If you measure their stress levels, they're much more stressed outside because then they're.

Going to get done by keeper the.

Birds and they're like, oh my God, we're gonna get eaten.

You put them in the outside and they're like, oh, it's lovely.

Much more relaxed.

Oh, there's Terry.

Let's have a little chat.

I think the boxes, people talk about those.

No, no, but generally.

No, generally now in the UK you have a big warehouse and they're quite a lot of them.

In there.

Yeah.

But actually, people are like, we apply our humanity.

Going like, well, they'll want to be free outside driving a Jaguar, won't they?

You know, it's like, no, like, chickens are quite.

It's a bit like in zoos, which I can be quite mixed about.

I don't think predators, I don't think the tigers and the lions like it very much.

But the herbivores, the ones who get hunted, they love it.

Yeah.

I mean, I just went to this zoo I was in near New Orleans.

We.

Anyway, there's this zoo and there was this.

All the herbivores and then there was this little bit, all the tigers and they were on each side and they could basically see each other, but they couldn't get to each other.

There's a big glass wall in front.

Yeah.

Basically there was this sort of walkway and stuff, but it wasn't even glass.

So they could kind of see each other, they could hear each other.

But the herbivores were all chilled out.

So I was like, well, they've obviously been long enough.

They've worked out the tigers can't get them.

But the tigers must have been like, he's taking the piss, man.

You know, it's like, this is a great conversation.

Tigers and bees, you've covered over.

Yeah, I mean, I raise these silly things, maybe for my own amusement, but there is that.

You know, what I'm really trying to make the point is there's other.

There's other upsides to insects, as you say, they like tight spaces, they like being in the dark.

They like these environments.

They're not humans, you know, they're not.

They're not even cows.

They're not.

They're not things that.

It's like, oh, poor them.

And they.

And that.

What's their life?

Their life won't even be that long, so.

So their full life is eight weeks, that sort of six, seven weeks.

So we're pretty much giving them their full life anyway.

Would you do gas them or something?

No, we drop the temperature, they go into hibernation and then you drop the temperature more and then we freeze them.

So they.

So they just go to sleep and don't wake up.

Oh, that's beautiful.

And therefore, the barrier from all of this is.

You've said it to me.

You know, when we've been hanging out, it's just people's social conditioning to meet insects.

Is that the biggest barrier it.

We don't have?

That is not our barrier.

We've actually got quite a lot of demand, I would say the demand is a outstrip far where we thought we'd be right now.

I wouldn't say everybody on every street corners eating crickets.

But it, it's shifting, is it?

It's shifting and it's shifting a lot quicker than we ever thought.

People are quite accepted and people have traveled to Southeast Asia, you know, if anybody's.

What are they buying?

They're buying the protein bars.

Are they?

Or I mean in Asia you could, you could just, you could have them.

They're quite nice as snacks like, Like Chris.

They're quite crispy.

I'm in barbecue flavor or maple syrup.

And they're really.

The whole crickets there.

Yeah, yeah.

Then they're quite nice as bar snacks.

I always use prawns as the example when people are like, oh, we need insects, like.

Yeah.

But we're quite happy to.

Technically they're crustacean, aren't they?

A prawn.

But you're quite happy to share the prawn or you know, do you know what?

There's very little difference between a prawn and a cricket.

I bet it's a sort of.

It's a sort of.

And it is condition if you think about it.

In, in France, people eating snails and frogs legs.

I must introduce you to.

We had on the pod.

I.

You could go look him up.

Matt.

Matt Hunt I think is his surname.

He does protein balls.

I mean he's.

He has a big protein ball business and he.

Amazing guy, big up Matt and fabulous human.

But yeah, he's built really significant business but he's an expert in protein and when he Source protein.

So.

So you two should connect because I bet he'd be bloody interesting.

So we must follow up on that.

But he was the, he was the one talking about the different, different protein sources and this obsession, this absolute drive now because I, I'm not a, you know, you're a bit more of a bodybuilder and stuff.

For me I was sort of surprised about how obsessed people are with protein and getting protein.

It's a sort of.

I don't know, it's maybe it's slightly an anathema to the vegan movement and obviously there's protein in vegetables of course.

And you know, but you know, obviously an easy source of protein is the meat world, isn't it?

And there's this sort of.

What's driving this obsession is bodybuilding.

Is it?

Is it?

Is it, is it fitness?

I. I think it.

Researchers come out saying how much protein we need.

I mean, but I thought it was.

Always we only need a little, that I was always taught we eat way too much protein.

You only need like a small piece of chicken a day and that's all you need.

And everyone eats two steaks a week or whatever.

You know, I think it's small and regular rather than, you know, I mean, variety is, is, is definitely what's there.

A varied diet is really important.

So I'm not advocating feeding insects every day either.

You know, I, I like my steak and I like my, I like my risotto and I like, you know, there's lots of things I like eating.

And crickets is just, is just another addition to that.

Yeah, I guess there is obsession with protein.

There is.

Yeah, there is.

And I, I think it's low carb.

Yeah.

So it doesn't make you fat.

So there's that sort of, there's the whole low carb movement.

The, the Atkins world of sort of that.

There's bodybuilding, which is.

They obsess about, isn't it?

And I, I mean look at all the young men now.

I mean they're all rich, ripped, they've.

All got this huge.

I think, I think where it's important is our age group because we do start losing muscle.

So true that it's our age group where it's important.

And I think where crickets come into play is with people that have got a lot a loss of appetite.

So older people that might, whatever cancer, it might be medication they're on.

Yeah.

They've had a slip and they've broken a hip and they've gone into hospital and they just haven't got an appetite.

And I think cricket would definitely fills that gap.

I'm actually thinking my little daughter, you know, my five year old daughter who's very little and doesn't eat a lot, but she likes things like steak, which is very interesting.

She's obviously got my genetics.

But you know, she likes protein but still only eats a little bit.

It's like.

Yeah, I can imagine if she didn't know what it was, I could give her a little bit.

And that's doing double the job that you said.

Amazing stat.

What, what steak is 30, protein 30, 35.

It's quite fat in it, I guess.

I think so, isn't there?

But yeah, good facts.

Crickets 60 to 70.

Is there fat in crickets?

Not.

Not much.

Very little.

Yes.

Because you don't, you don't get a fat cricket.

No, you don't get a fat cricket.

Doesn't really, you know, that wouldn't be.

That wouldn't go very well because they need to be a light structure.

Yeah, yeah, you need to jump.

But they've got very high in lots of other things.

Like, like I said before, you know, very high in iron, omega 3, calcium, potassiums.

It's packed with all.

Everything you need, really.

Do you think could you.

Or is it one of those foods?

It's a bit like.

What could you live off on its own?

It's like, you know, the coconut is one of the ones that sort of has a diverse sort of.

You know, it's got water, it's got this, it's got that.

You know, I think crickets would definitely fit that bill.

You.

You've done a few acquisitions in your time, Daniel.

It's always fun acquiring things.

Tell me about Street Stream.

We acquired them.

They were a competitor, career business.

They definitely one of the new breeds that raised money on the tech side of things.

So eventually we picked up the client base and when I looked under the hood, the tech wasn't that good, but I didn't pay big money for it, so.

Did you know that just.

You only found out the tech wasn't that good once you got it or.

I sort of had an inkling and I didn't pay for the tech.

I just paid for the.

The client base with an option to buy the tech.

But when I saw the.

The tech wasn't that great, I left it.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

So it works.

Acquiring.

You acquired their customer base, their clients?

They were.

Yeah.

And that was five and a half years ago.

And we still got some of those clients, so I guess it was.

It wasn't a bad deal.

And then you can upsell other products that they didn't have.

Street.

Street didn't have storage.

They didn't have fulfillment.

So we did quite a lot of fulfillment for same day delivery in London.

Did anyone try and talk you out of this purchase?

People try and talk me out of things all the time.

I'm not the best listener.

You take it in.

You take it in.

It will take that under advisement.

I never understood that phrase when I was young, but.

No, I get it.

Yeah.

And when did you acquire them?

5 And a half years ago.

Okay.

And they were a techie Logistics.

They were techie logistics.

Something.

They tried to replicate the.

The.

The Uber idea, which I've seen lots of courier companies try to do, and it doesn't work.

Really?

Why does it not work?

It doesn't work because unlike a cab that you get A from A to B, and when you get to B, that becomes a Again, when the passenger gets out, couriers tend to pick up multiple parcels alone.

So it's very frustrating watching it move around the map.

You're like, it's oh, it's going the wrong way.

Yeah.

In the ring.

Yeah.

Not that he's got another parcel he's delivering for somebody else first.

It's like everybody thinks it's each crew is going to pick their parcel up.

So that concept works in food delivery because you just keep going back to the restaurant.

Once you've delivered it, you're empty again.

But generally couriers, if they're doing multi dropping or from point to point, they probably got other parcels on board.

And I'm sure AI will work this out.

But most computer systems do not know how to dispatch work.

Where is unknown variables that come into place.

It's one of those, what do they call them, very hard maths problems or something.

The sort of allocation of where to pick up and how to drop off.

The human brain's actually quite good at it apparently.

But it is because if you go a situation where you've got a delivery and it's in a building on the 18th floor and you're taking the lift to get, to get there and then for whatever reason you get stuck up there for a long while, then there's a knock on effect again.

All the other parcels are late.

Yes.

So because of that knock on effect, not knowing what each delivery is going to throw at you, it's very hard to plan the rest of the drop offs and what time they will be.

And that's why I don't think any system has managed to crack that in the past.

So we've talked about how to build a network and the importance of a network.

I thought that was really interesting what you shared.

We've talked about neurodiversity and its place in leadership and almost why it is its place in leadership.

You talked about how you've found a new opportunity in edible or with your, you know, looking at some sort of technology.

You run an all electric, all electric logistics operation I think in London and I think there's a sustainability thread to what you do.

There's a edible, there's a sort of, there's something in, in that for you.

But you know why, why sustainability important and what does it, does it, you know why, why is it important to you and does it attract stronger partners or what's that about to you?

Sustainability.

I mean we need to draw a line and know the difference between sustainability and greenwash and there's a lot of green wash out there 100 okay.

But aside from the green wash, you know, I live on this planet.

I've got a son.

He's going to have to live on this planet and future generations are.

And I think I'd like to leave this place a little bit better than how I found it.

Which is going to be hard because it's not just my responsibility.

But we all live on this planet.

We all walk around London.

We all have to breathe air.

You know, natural disasters, you know, take lives.

It's, it's something that we will have to do our own little bit.

So then it comes necessarily from some strategic business idea more than a responsibility.

Yeah, a bit of, a bit of societal responsibility.

No difference.

Not chucking your rubbish out your window when you're driving a car.

I, I, I have a friend who did that once and we almost fell out over.

I was so angry.

But anyway, yeah, I mean a little bit of responsibility is so true.

And do you think that if you started another business or everything that it would need to have a sustainable angle or maybe it's always got to be a, a thread.

I, I think that's one of the biggest pause and attractions to getting involved and, and founding or co founding sorry Edible was being logistics as much as we are definitely more of an environmentally friendly logistics company than most out there.

I still feel it's not the most, you know, green business.

You can use it green because we're all getting everything delivered to our door now.

It's better that we go to the shop, isn't it really?

Don't take me down that.

I mean is is a lot of greenwash and is.

And there's a lot of.

If environmentally, you know, E commerce has been a disaster.

Really.

Absolutely.

People sitting.

It's about convenience, not about helping the planet.

Yeah.

I guess that's why I wanted to get into Edible and growing insects because I thought this is the most environmentally friendly diet there's almost.

I don't want to.

Guilt's a bit strong but there's always an awareness of your.

You've got into a business which underneath it is not necessarily the best business for the planet.

Yeah.

But that is what we want.

We want things delivered to.

Yeah.

I mean I deliver them more environmentally friendly than the 95 of my, my competitors.

Hence you've got.

Because is it, does it make, is it more financially sensible for you to have an all electric fleet or.

I mean we use electric cargo bikes as well which are fantastic in London with lots of roads getting closed off.

So cargo bikes Mostly pedal power with a little bit of battery assist.

It was advantage again.

Electric vehicles a few years.

A few years back when all the tax was there and free congestion charge, which is not happening.

I mean, are electric vehicles greener?

I mean, it's such a complex question.

It's a very complex question.

There's a lot of unknown stuff about where these batteries are gonna get used or recycled or dumped one day.

At least they're big enough that you can't chuck them in the bin.

Yeah, I mean, or the.

I mean, I. I will still struggle with it that we use batteries every day.

We use Duracell and stuff.

And I probably like you, like a lot of people, I've got this big pot and we just fill it up and it's just full of old batteries.

And then once in a blue moon, remember to do it.

But I mean, the fact that they don't have a way of more easily disposing of batteries, I mean, it's criminal.

I take them to Robert Dyess, their name.

Not.

I don't know why, but that's where I take.

You can.

You can drop them there.

You can drop them, Robert Dice, because.

I've been building out this pot thinking, I gotta remember, we'll look up where to go.

But isn't it mad?

Because these are heavy metals, these are.

These are nasty substances.

Terrible for the environment.

Terrible.

I mean, it's dangerous, but it's also terrible.

I mean, he's.

You know, I can't even list you.

But, you know, serious chemicals you're putting into the system.

And they're everywhere.

Batteries.

I mean, they're in everything, you know, now.

Everything.

And now, now they're in every.

Every product you're buying, every.

You know, and they'll be packed in there.

You can't even break it out.

You chuck it in the bin where you chuck in a battery in the bin.

Now.

It's appalling, isn't it?

So think of all these cars that have been built now.

Yeah.

I was feeling more optimistic that at least a car ends up at a scrap yard which knows the battery is worth money if they strip the metals out of it and everything I imagine it's got.

So I have a feeling, E, because my Tesla got written off and someone said to me, oh, a battery, even a recycled battery from a Tesla's worth five, ten grand, apparently.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, they're worth quite a lot of money because my car was write off and then obviously someone bought it and fixed it.

But someone else said to me, actually, the batch is quite valuable.

Someone will scrap merchant will do that stripping it about 10 grand for the battery breakdown.

I don't know.

He resells the battery.

Maybe because it still functions.

Maybe it's worth in that.

But I mean they're heavy chemicals in there and batteries chemistry so you can reverse it.

But I was speaking to a competitor the other day that's stop buying electric vehicles since congestion charge.

What's the point?

Isn't that just get yourself a one expensive vehicle.

They're very expensive vehicles to buy in the first place now is no advantage to buying them.

I still do because I believe in it.

But not everybody does.

Well, thank you Daniel.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

We're going to play a little game business or I'm going to name some stuff.

Yeah.

You need to hold the paddle up.

Say the word as well.

Business or.

Yeah.

And we can debate if we feel we want to or otherwise.

Clear?

Clear.

Okay, here we go.

Founders clubs.

So as in you know, networking.

Founders club, Business.

Business.

You mean to any.

Yeah.

And this is sort of more for entrepreneurs I guess similarly it is or.

Already professional really now entrepreneurs definitely Entrepreneurs.

Business founders and leaders.

Go and meet people.

Go and meet people.

It's still whatever you want to call it, it's still a networking event.

You're just meeting the same people regularly and they become your hot networkers.

Yeah.

So if we want to remove the word network or bring it back in but yeah we should all be.

You mentioned earlier it's a lonely place being a CEO.

So I. Yeah.

I do think they're.

They're great places to share ideas and thought leadership.

Agreed.

Business coaches.

Sorry, I know quite a few.

I know quite a few as well.

So sorry about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you feel?

No, I to say that all.

It'd be unfair.

There's a lot of ones out there and most of them work for big companies never rolled their sleeves up and worked in a.

In an SME.

So find someone who's been in SME.

Find someone who's literally sweated and over their old own business.

If.

If their background is IBM and.

And Ministry of Health or something then walk away because lots of people find becoming business coaches a latter part of their career is.

That is.

Is the way forward.

I think what you mentioned there is there are different versions of business and I think very, very much does the big corporate world with the big companies.

We don't actually have a lot of that in the UK and that style of business is so different from SME from what you and Me know, and I think that's you could apply that to what's our frustration with the politics, with the tax, with everything is the government seems to think that it all looks like.

That it all looks like big and corporate with lots of money and it's all Thames water and they're all bad people and stuff.

Whereas, you know, you and me know something so granular.

So in this example it's an interesting one where don't have someone who's coached CEOs of Tesco's.

No offense, you know, there's nothing wrong with that.

That just, it's just a very different walk to someone running an SMEs.

I, I probably it's to say that all business coaches are, is unfair.

There's a lot of bullshitters out, so watch out.

So picking the right one is very hard but if you do find the right one, they're great.

But on the whole there's a lot of.

There's a lot more coaches out there than good ones.

Agreed.

Just talk to everybody and anybody.

Business or business?

Yeah, business.

Business and life.

Yes, I agree.

Let's do Claude business or AI Claude AI business.

Unbelievable.

And.

And chat GBT business.

I, I just think, I just think Claude seems to be the, the go to one now and better results.

But I understand.

But they're all doing this all the time.

Like next week GP do a release and it'll be up here and then.

So they're all doing this at the moment.

Definitely, Claude And I heard from my very clever client this week.

He said, well, the reason Anthropic's winning the race is they're attracting the.

Because they're a bit more ethical because whatever.

People want to go work for Anthropic.

They don't want to.

Yeah, he says that they're in.

This guy knows everyone and everything in that world and he says they're just pulling in the talent, Andy, so they're probably going to win the race.

Basically, people don't want to go work for Elon, which I'm a bit, I'm a bit more sympathetic with Elon, as we were just discussing, but I know lots of people hate him.

Fair enough.

But the fact he's changed the planet in more ways than if I'd done one of the things Elon's done, you know, you'd be a hero.

But anyway, that aside, in the personal politics, you know, Anthropic are trying to act a little better and then the good thing about that, which I hadn't really thought through is the Company that acts a bit better, has a bit more.

Attracts the better people, doesn't it?

Absolutely.

The people go on and come and work for someone that they're like, no, they're, they're decent.

You know, I saw something the other day in the oil industry.

They sent like, I think he works for bp.

They can't find young people wanting to come and work for them anymore.

It's like the oil industry is like a.

Which is a nonsense really because the whole idea of peak oil is we're gonna have oil for ages.

It's a bit like stop oil.

It's like, okay, well it is everywhere and everything and there are.

Everyone's like, well we can get rid of plastic.

It's like there really aren't replacements for plastic yet for certain things.

You know, it's.

It's a sort of naivety almost of sort of like I'm anti this thing because it's naugh.

It's like, it's a hell of a lot more complex than that, mate.

And if we're going to get rid of pharmaceuticals, your mum's now dead, you know what I mean?

Or whatever.

Yeah.

It's like stop oil tomorrow morning can't happen.

The whole society less relying on it.

We need to, we need to push for that.

Absolutely.

And find other ways.

But oil is going to be around forever and is an incredibly useful commodity.

But yes, we need to manage the carbon or we need to manage the whatever and you know, it's like whack a mole anyway, you know, like, I know it's like, you know, fix one problem the way we fix it will cause another problem.

It's just like, oh, okay.

Thing I don't understand is this plastic straw versus a paper straw.

I don't like straws.

Throw the straw away and drink out the glass.

I'm so with you.

I hate straws.

I said, but kids like straws.

But paper straws, I mean, what a pain in the ass they are.

I mean seriously, you know, let's get down.

We could there paper straws.

Let's do one more.

More.

Go on.

Delivery drones.

Autonomous delivery drones.

That it?

It's both.

It's a, it's a long answer.

I think they're brilliant for the right use.

I don't think they're going to be flying around London anytime soon delivering parcels.

I don't want them flying around London delivering dangerous or way too dangerous because.

They're like, we're going to drop it in your garden.

It's like, well, most Londoners don't really have a garden, mate.

So how's that work?

I think.

I think they're brilliant if to get some medical kit somewhere quickly.

Remote.

I think remote parts of Australia.

Brilliant.

I think bigger drones doing middle mile.

I don't know if you're familiar with the.

With logistics.

You got first mile, middle mile, last mile.

Middle mile.

Absolutely.

I can see a use.

Last mile is getting it from.

Last mile is getting through to your house.

Is it?

Yeah.

Or from a.

Our depot in London Bridge to middle mile is what?

Middle mile could be from a port in space.

A port in.

From Dover to our warehouse.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

And the first mile is getting it.

To the port the first mile would have been getting it to.

So.

No, because that's also still middle mile.

First.

First mile would have been collecting it in China and taking it to the port in China.

Oh, okay.

And then you've got a long middle mile.

From there, you've got a long middle.

Mile and then the last mile.

But I prob this overly complicated middle first one.

But we're trying to.

We're trying to teach logistics.

Yeah, but middle mile, where it's taking decent weight and it's a big drone.

I could see that working.

But last mile having little things buzzing around our heads in.

In cities.

Thank you, Daniel.

It's been wonderful to chat.

Great to make this happen finally.

That's been this week's episode of Business World bs You will catch us again soon.

Until then, it's ciao.

Loves it.

Ciao.