The phrase I hear all the time is, as a woman, I have imposter syndrome.

Well, that's rubbish.

And when we're trying to strive towards inclusivity, you're straight away making this about.

Gender when you attach things to it.

As a white privileged male, I can never attach it to who I am.

Did I not get the job because I'm black, or did I not get the job because I'm a woman?

If you want to be taken seriously as a leader, then lead, take the lead.

Leadership starts with self leadership.

I think it has to.

So I think it's being able to sort of look in the mirror and go, I'm not massively happy with that aspect, so what can I do about that?

And it will almost always come from a place of fear.

We were very aware of the Daily Mail test.

Daily Mail test me off.

I remember hearing a man speak who was head of the Red Arrows, and I remember him spending the whole hour talking about the selection process that you go through to be a Red Arrow pilot, to be a Red Arrow engineer.

And he was basically going on about, these are the best humans on the planet.

He said, but if that person gets in the Daily Mail, they're out.

Hi, and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

We're here to help the founders, entrepreneurs, business owners, anyone who wrestles with the job of being in charge.

And if you like what we do here, please rate and review us on Spotify and Apple.

And come say hi on YouTube if you fancy watching us in action.

Links are in the episode description or just search for WB London.

This week I meet the fabulous Sarah Furness, whose self described superpower is being just enough of a bitch.

If you want to know what she means by that, then skip this and just start watching it.

Sarah was the first female helicopter pilot to lead Special Forces missions in Iraq.

Pretty cool.

These days she is bringing battlefield hardened insights to business problems, helping leaders to create healthy behaviors and environments in threatening or stressful situation.

She talks about how being a combat pilot isn't about flying the aircraft, it's about leading the crew.

How mindfulness is about being able to focus your mind where you want or need it to be, even if you've just hit some high tension cables in your helicopter and you might all be about to die.

And how the military taught her to accept failure in order to create psychological safety.

As she says, the only way we can learn from a mistake is if we talk about it.

And we can't talk about it if you're punished for it.

We get into a Lot of other stuff, just culture versus blame.

Culture, gender roles and why people not accepting Air Max is enough to give you a disco leg.

If you want to know what a disco leg is, you'll have to wait all the way to the end.

But spoiler alert, something to do with amex.

Anyway, check it out.

I am Andy Oury and today we are joined by Sarah Furness.

Sarah is the founder of well Be It.

Best selling author, executive coach, and the first female helicopter pilot to lead UK Special Forces missions in Iraq.

She's gone through combat zones to boardrooms, helping leaders navigate high performance failure and emotional intelligence with courage and clarity.

With a background in mindfulness, human factors and cognitive therapy, Sarah brings battlefield tested insights to modern leadership.

All without losing her sense of humor or her humanity.

Sarah, warm welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much.

That's a very nice collection of achievements, I have to say.

So we'll start.

Just.

Let's get to know you a little better.

Some easy questions, I hope.

Just a little quick follow, far round, short punchy questions.

Answer as quickly as you can.

Dee is queuing some music.

And the first question is.

What was your first job, Sarah?

I was temping as a waitress.

Okay, nice.

And what's your worst job?

Probably temping as a waitress.

Yes, nice.

And favorite subject at school?

All of them.

Because I was a swat.

All of them?

Yeah, I just.

Just love being at school.

Oh, really?

Just total swat.

What was your least favorite subject?

You must have had one.

I wasn't very good at PE actually, which really annoyed me.

It's not a subject.

I know, right?

Exactly.

It's art.

Anything kind of.

I don't know.

When you mean you were swat, does that mean you just.

You just worked really hard?

Yeah.

Yeah, I just liked working.

Yeah, it's a trait you see sometimes.

What's your special skill, Sarah?

Apparently I'm just enough of a.

Just enough of a.

Am I allowed to say that?

Yeah, you totally are.

I like the description just enough of a bitch.

It's probably insinuated the other way too.

You're a nice.

You're a nice person with just an edge of cuttingness.

You'd fit in well in Australia, maybe.

Maybe I'm a bit Marmite.

And I think people who are friends with me will say you're just enough of a bitch.

But other people probably say, no, you really are too much.

Okay, that's a brilliant insight.

What did you want to be when you grew up?

A Top Gun pilot.

Specifically, I wanted to be Maverick.

Did you?

Yes.

Okay.

You just.

You, You.

I.

I would never ask a lady their age, but this was a film you watched in your youth, I assume, you know.

Yeah, absolutely.

I can't remember when it came out, but, yeah, I watched it.

1984.

Yeah, I was born in 79, so I didn't watch it when I was.

Five, but, yeah, it might have been later.

Yeah, we're the same age.

Okay, very good.

What did your parents want you to be?

Whatever I wanted to be.

They were.

They were really supportive.

Even Maverick from Top Gun.

Yeah.

Well, my dad's ex Air Force, anyway, so I think he was, you know, kind of happy with that.

And I think I was.

I've always been so driven, and I think they sort of knew better than to stand in my way, so they just kind of supported me and sort of jumped on the bandwagon with me.

Really Very nice.

You ever done karaoke?

Yes.

What's your go to karaoke song, Sarah?

It's Hanky Panky by Madonna.

Which.

It does make some people blush, but the main reason is because Madonna's really easy to sing.

Because, well, certainly that song, because it sort of stays within quite a narrow range and I'm not the best singer, so I've never.

I've never even known she did a song.

I always smile when I hear the word hanky panky.

Because in India, when they want to say.

They don't want.

They want to do everything by the book, they say, no hanky panky.

So you can be in a very serious meeting and they'll say, well, listen, Andrew, no hanky panky.

And they're thinking, well, I didn't come for any of that, that's for sure.

I'm just here as an account.

I know, but they're planting the seed, right?

Yeah, well, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, come on, then.

Let's all get busy.

Anyway, stranger things that happen.

Office dogs, business, or bullshit.

I don't know what they are.

Well, it's a dog in an office.

Oh, right.

Okay.

You're very specific how your mind works.

I can see it's very like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It wouldn't be my choice, but I'm not.

I don't just say bullshit.

Don't have a straw.

Okay, Bullshit.

Bullshit.

Done.

Have you ever been fired?

Is this.

Or no?

It's just a question.

Have I ever been fired?

Yes.

From the temping waitress job.

Oh, did you get fired for that?

Yeah.

What did you do?

I was drinking behind the bar.

Right.

Nice.

And they caught me, so.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

You weren't Practicing cocktail skills?

No.

What's your vice?

Champagne.

Good answer.

You've just won a special prize.

Is it champagne?

Well, I mean, yeah, it should be.

I mean, we have some, if you would like some, you know.

Absolutely.

Our producer will hold.

Hold me back for the first 20 minutes, I'm sure, before things descend into chaos.

But you wouldn't understand how few people answer with alcohol.

Or really, everyone's like, oh, I work too hard.

The other one people opt for, which I'm sure is a cop out.

D is sugar.

Oh, yeah, I've got a sweet tooth.

It's like, you know, I'm thinking it's crack cocaine, isn't it?

That's what you're into.

Yeah.

We've had so few.

We had one person say, I live in Amsterdam, you work it out.

Brilliant.

That's the end of the Quick Fire round.

Love it.

So what are you doing currently, Sarah?

What are you up to?

So I am now a motivational speaker, which I know it's not like it's a bit of a phrase, but it's the one that everyone recognizes.

You know, if I could say leadership keynote.

But really, I'm a motivational speaker.

It's only in Britain we panic about those phrases, isn't it?

Well, I don't know if it's only in Britain, but certainly our American cousins have no problem with it, you know.

Yeah, but you do sort of say it apologetically, like, I'm a motivational speaker, but then you don't have to explain because everyone sort of gets it.

And is that that you're sort of hard by organizations to come in and say, come on.

Is that what.

Yeah, well, no, not really.

Because, like, say in Britain, if you did that, they'd be a bit like, oh, this is a bit awkward.

But I mean, certainly you're there to inspire people to take action, to, you know, take risks, to lean into discomfort, all those kind of things.

And they're a bit buzzwordy, but they do actually make a difference.

You know, if you're running a business and you want your people to work harder or, I don't know, push the boundaries, then motivational speaker can be the difference between someone going, all right, I'm going to do this, because you unlock something in them, you allow them to see something in a different way.

You allow them to see something that they would have shied away from, actually to be excited about it.

So in that terms, you are motivating people, but you're doing it by.

Well, the way I think is by showing them a different way to look at things, for them to give themselves permission to do kind of what they already knew they wanted to do anyway.

So it's a sort of.

You're delivering transformational experiences, which also sounds a bit kind of wanky, but essentially that is what you're there to do because, you know, you've got 40 minutes to make a difference.

So, you know, you've got to be able to get people to go, ah, okay, yeah, I could do that.

Yeah.

It's amazing, the power of sort of suggestion, isn't it, that, you know, we all need a bit of a nudge, as you say.

It's like.

It's a bit.

Bit like hypnotism, you know, can you get people to do things they definitely wouldn't do?

There's a sort of element that we're all a bit in a dream all the time, isn't he?

And you have a little nudge.

Actually happened to me at lunch.

Someone said something to me slightly and I was like, oh, yeah, that kind of moves me along.

I love the idea of a private motivational speaker, though.

Like a private training.

Can you imagine one sort of in the morning, like, get up.

You can do it.

Absolutely.

Go get the coffee.

Yeah, we're gonna get.

Come on.

It's the army, isn't it?

It's like the sergeant major.

Absolutely.

The bugle, but yeah, absolutely.

You bugle caller.

And what?

And you got into this.

I assume you've obviously had this unusual, illustrious career becoming.

Becoming maverick.

Well, yes, absolutely.

Do you fly a gunship?

No.

Well, I flew helicopters, which is not at all what Maverick flies, because I tried to be a fast jet pilot and kind of ran out of talent is what I like to say.

So you've got to be.

It's quite.

Quite hard to get.

Yeah, it's.

It's a pretty, you know, we don't.

Have many of them.

I was just reading the other day, the F15s, whatever, we got four of them or something, isn't it, you know.

Yeah.

You know, we're a small nation with a small budget, so we've got a few less than our American cousins.

So there's not many of those pilots who fly at that level.

No.

And for sure, the standard's, you know, very high.

I always sort of say flying training is a bit like a race.

You have to get to the required standard before the money runs out.

They've only got so many hours they can chuck at you.

Right, right.

So you could eventually learn to fly if you had thousands of Hours.

You could eventually fly anything.

But, you know, at some point they've got to have a cutoff line.

Some people make it, some people don't.

And the standard's quite high.

So I didn't qu.

Quite make the standard to be a fighter.

It's quite physical too, isn't it?

Can you take the G forces?

You know, what's your biology?

Do you.

You know, I get terribly car sick and I'm putting me in something.

When they spam me around once and I just threw up everywhere.

It was crazy.

Is it the Trocadero?

It's a really real experience.

That was.

But I was like, I would never make a good airline pilot.

You know, I had.

Because you can't have the motion sickness thing particularly, can you?

You know, that's not going to be very helpful.

Well, exactly.

I mean, it does help when you're the one driving because you're a bit more in control, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what you need to do.

Okay.

Yeah.

Of course they have this sort of fixed budget and you're right.

And so they just say, right, great.

You're the people who are more talented enough.

Exactly.

To train the leads who just seem to have a natural affinity.

Okay.

And it's the next run down.

Helicopters.

Exactly.

Right, yes.

So then I went off to fly helicopters.

You've got a bit more thinking time with the helicopter because it's only going.

Doesn't go that fast.

Two miles a minute.

Yeah.

I mean, I've been in a helicopter a few times and I've spent every time.

And I'm not a very anxious person, trying to learn to fly a helicopter by watching, convinced that the pilot was going to suddenly die.

It's such a sort of visceral, you know, experience.

There's something about you in that little bubble.

There's nothing there.

There's no wings.

Yeah.

It's sort of very unnatural, isn't it?

It's like.

I agree.

I think that's why I actually found flying a helicopter more rewarding.

Because I suppose the way I liken it is flying a plane's a bit like, you know, driving a, you know, performance car.

Right.

Sports car, whatever you want to call it.

But flying a helicopter is a bit like riding a motorbike.

There's just something a bit more raw about it and you get that instant feedback and you're a bit more kind of.

You feel like you're closer to nature, so.

And I actually really love that feeling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow.

That's amazing.

And then you Know, there's something, obviously you're hard working, as it were, but why is flying a helicopter the role of a leader?

I mean, I guess so.

It's very challenging.

It is.

So when you're the captain of the aircraft, then you are leading a small crew, albeit of three people.

But the leadership comes from going up through the ranks.

So actually when you're a squadron leader, as I was in the raf, it's really not about the flying, it's about leading.

You've got a crew of pilots and a crew of crewmen and you've got three or four crews that you'll deploy to Iraq, Afghanistan with and you're leading that team of people and the engineers and so on and so forth.

So the leadership comes from the non flying assets.

Expect a lot of the time as well.

And you, when you fly into combat or so you're flying in, you're delivering.

Well, I mean, what are you doing?

They're delivering special forces troops and they're all charging out like the Aliens movie.

Going, absolutely, yeah, it was just like that.

Yeah.

But basically you're a battle taxi, you know, that's.

You've got gunships which are like your Apache, but we're just, we're the bus drivers.

Right.

We just take the troops into battle and then take them back out again.

Right, right, right.

And you didn't fly.

Why would you not fly a gunship as well?

That's a different skill.

Is it?

It's just a bigger helicopter.

So the Apache is the gunship and that's an army helicopter.

So you would have to be in the army to fly an Apache.

But you sort of, it's not like you kind of get out of one car one day and get into another.

You're flying your helicopter type and you're doing that for like two years.

So you could then go, right, well, I've finished flying the Puma and I'm gonna go fly some of them.

Yeah, I was gonna say, did you fly Lynx?

No, they're the very fast ones.

Right, yes.

They only flew the Puma and I did three tours, so, you know, sort of three turns of the wheel on the Puma.

Oh, very cool.

Yeah.

No, I'd love the fact you said I only flew the Puma or whatever now.

Okay, brilliant.

So you came out of that and then as usual in life were like, well, what's next kind of thing?

And, and the appeal there was, how did you get into speaking?

What was the first gig?

Yeah, so I thought I was leaving it all behind.

I'd actually sort of discovered mindfulness when I was in the military.

Not that I discovered it, obviously, it was there before I came, but I found it to be incredibly helpful.

What does it mean to you?

Mindfulness training the mind.

And.

And for me, it was about the inner work.

You know, I wasn't that happy with who I was.

You know, there were character traits, you know, like being enough of a.

But sometimes maybe too much and just not really liking myself very much.

So a sort of mindfulness helped me to kind of work through that, but also just deal with difficult situations that are thrown at you.

And.

And I realized I wasn't the only one that finds this stuff hard.

And that, you know, self loathing is a very difficult thing to talk about.

Right.

But I did feel it, and I realized I wasn't the only one.

And I thought, that's an awful thing to go through on your own.

Right.

And mindfulness really helped me with that.

So I wanted to sort of share this with the world, Right.

And go, look, you all need to know this stuff.

So I left the Air Force to become a mindfulness coach, and I was going to cure the world of all suffering, and this was my new plan.

And I was gonna leave the military completely behind me.

But nobody was really that interested in the mindfulness thing.

And they all wanted to know about the flying.

Yes.

So I sort of, kind of repackaged it a bit, rather than going, I'm gonna teach you mindfulness.

I'm gonna tell you some stories about flying a helicopter.

And sort of woven into it is actually quite a lot of mindfulness.

So that's really how it kind of came to pass that I realized I could use my flying stories as a vehicle to illustrate mindfulness concepts, to prove that they work to make them more accessible to people that might have decided that it's not for them.

So really, I'm kind of hypnotizing people.

Mindfulness, when it comes down to it in practice, is that things like meditation.

Is that the.

Yeah.

So meditation is like your gym session where you sit and do it for 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes.

The act of mindfulness is something you can do anywhere, anytime, because it's about focusing your attention where you want it to be.

And the story that I tell about this is when I was flying down a valley in Morocco, and we hit some high tension electricity.

Cables smashed open the cables, the canopy shattered, the cockpit got very noisy.

This is a well versed story that I tell, and I started daydreaming in that moment very quickly.

But Your life flashes before your eyes and you think, this is me, I'm gonna go.

And the captain shouted, fly the aircraft.

And immediately my focus was back in the cockpit.

And that's actually what you're doing when you study or when you practice mindfulness, you notice that your attention's wandered and you bring it back to where you want it to be.

And every time you do that, that's a mental sit up.

Basically, you're training your brain.

And we were basically doing this when we were flying.

Right.

So that's what made me realise it's.

Not like driving your car home after a long day at work.

You can't really drift off flying a helicopter, can you?

And suddenly like, oh, but you do.

And that's the.

And this will happen.

And also, people do drift off in their car, don't they?

And then they'll get that sort of jolt of, oh, I need to be sort of back in the moment.

So I guess the story demonstrates that mindfulness isn't just going, oh, and wearing hemp.

It's actually just about training your brain.

And every minute of every day you've got an opportunity to choose where you want to focus your attention.

And if you can do that when you're flying a helicopter, you can do that anywhere.

There's a couple of things I find interesting.

I mean, first of all, when you say the accident happened, you started daydreaming.

I understand the theory when you drown that the life flashes before your eyes.

Is that the idea is that when you're in extreme problems, your brain will start searching for any similar situation that might get you out of this?

Yeah.

So they, It's a theory, but they say the reason people who've survived drowning say, I saw my life flash before my eyes is your brain is literally going, what situation have I been in that can help me with this?

That makes sense.

Yeah.

But I mean, the self loathing thing I found really interesting because the moment you said it, I was like, I think, who knows what the status.

But I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of people felt self loathing, you know, in some sort of state, you know, maybe again, it's a bit of a British cultural pastime, isn't it?

Because the Americans seem to be much, much happier about themselves half the time, but.

Or, you know, much more, much more into their characters, I guess, sort of thing.

But yeah, I find the self loathing thing quite interesting.

I mean, for you, you know, and you don't need to delve into all the details, but for you, was it something.

When you started to get into it, it goes back to your youth or it's something you.

You know.

Why?

For you.

Yeah.

So I was quite resistant to the idea of let's, you know, let's.

Lana shares long and go back to when it all went wrong and blame it all on our parents.

I know that's not what you're saying, but again, that kind of.

Maybe it's because it's.

I was not.

Wasn't sure I wanted to go there.

And again, mindfulness gave me a way of.

It's not about digging up something in the past to give you an excuse for being who you are.

And I understand why we sometimes feel like we need to go back.

Cause we wanna give ourselves.

We feel so much shame.

Right.

And we wanna know.

You kind of think something really bad must have happened in my past for me to be like this today.

So I need to find something bad to give myself.

To give myself permission to forgive myself.

Right.

Whereas mindfulness is.

You don't need to do any of that stuff.

You just acknowledge that this is the human condition.

And we all feel this.

Did you see that wonderful study?

Yes.

You know, which in itself is an interesting thing because it's a sort of post war, everybody had grief.

So, you know, let's all not wind each other up and start breaking down.

But there was a study done because of COVID They couldn't do the study.

They wanted Cambridge or Oxford.

So they studied what happens if you suppress your feelings versus what happens if you go to it and get them up therapeutic.

And actually the group that suppressed their feelings felt happier, which is really curious.

It wasn't to say you should sort of bury it all.

You should recognize grief or whatever.

But it was to say, don't languish in them.

You know, get up.

Okay, whatever.

Push it down, get on with it.

You know, stiff up a little.

It was effectively the same kind of, you know, come on.

And in a way, you're phrasing it or framing it differently, which is quite interesting.

Is that mindfulness?

Yeah.

We've all got things we went through.

But, you know, you could argue your brain's not really your friend half the time either.

You know, it's throwing up anxieties.

It's got the dinosaur brain in there going like all this crap it's throwing at you.

Focus on what's going on right now and where you are and you know, most of us.

Most of us, and even those who struggle with money and things like that, most of us are incredibly lucky in this day and age.

You know, they're like, oh, I've only got one mobile phone and two pairs of train.

You know what I mean?

It's almost like we've become.

So, you know, you go back.

You go back, you know, a few generations when people were freezing cold.

You know, it's a sort of.

So your.

Your point, I think you're making, you tell me if I'm getting it wrong, is kind of like learning.

Learning effectively to focus on what's going now, rather than sort of letting all the past and the future, you know, drive you.

Absolutely.

And it is nuanced.

There's so much to unpick there.

But I think it's about learning you don't have to be hostage to whatever comes up.

But also, I think because we live such a comfortable existence, comparatively, I think the first time we feel any discomforts, we don't really know how to deal with it.

And it's not just to say we're not as tough as we used to be, but I think, you know, a good bit of being uncomfortable.

It taught us resilience because it taught us that we can survive these things.

Whereas now, any kind of hint of discomfort, I think we go, oh, well, I can't do that, and there must be something wrong.

And so we doubt our ability to get through onset uncertainty or anxiety, and then we have to give it a disorder or say there's something fundamentally wrong with us.

And actually, maybe that's just the course of life and we're stronger than we think.

And it's sort of giving people that information that you can.

You can ride through an emotion.

You don't have to run away from it.

Is this what you learned from extreme.

Going through extreme situations?

Is it?

I think yes, I did and I did.

I didn't piece it together until I started studying mindfulness and started realizing that, you know, people in the military are seen as quite tough.

And we are, because we've spent a lot of time being cold, wet, miserable, and hungry.

And what that teaches you is it doesn't kill you.

Right now, the mindfulness equivalent of that would be sitting with difficulty.

So you can do a meditation where you sit with difficult thoughts, but it's still the same thing.

It's still sitting with discomfort.

So I learned that in the military by accident, if you like.

And then when I studied mindfulness, I realized why it was so effective.

They weren't just doing it because there are sorts.

And they wanted us to be uncomfortable.

It was teaching us resilience.

Well, you're right.

I mean, I did core at school, which I actually, I didn't like at all because.

Because they basically dump you in a field without food or drink, in the freezing cold, and you get on with it for two days.

Yeah, this is the worst two days of my life, you know, but that's the resilience bit, isn't it?

You know, breaking down put you in tough situations, you know, but we lack it now.

We don't.

We do lack it, you know, in terms of your experience through your.

I mean, those extreme experiences had.

They shape your approach to therefore, you know, leadership in.

In.

In.

In.

In organizations.

Is it.

Yeah.

I think the biggest thing that I've probably taken away from leading in the military, that I realized the sort of commercial sector broad generalization would most benefit from, benefit from is learning from failure.

Because military aviation would probably see itself as fairly advanced in this.

And this is only because we've had our, you know, we've been caught with our pants down and made terrible mistakes, and people have died.

And we've learned that we have to be able to talk about failure.

God, people die.

That's the literature.

It's like, my wife's a doctor, she fucks up, people die.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so.

But ironically, because we are closer to death in a way, like if we get this wrong, people might die.

We also intuitively understand that there is not a single person that goes into work to make a mistake.

So if they made a mistake, anyone else could have made the same mistake, in which case we must learn from this.

And you can only learn from it if you can talk about it.

And you can only talk about it if you're not punished for it.

Yes, well, you're hitting something, which I can't stand the way people get.

Well, I see it in medicine, but you know the way.

Yeah, I came to work today to kill someone.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

There's some evil doctors out there talking about one in a million.

You know, this very simple basic example that drives me mad is when you crash a car and the other person gets out and goes, why did you do that, you idiot?

Why?

And you'll sometimes scream it in your face like, why?

Why?

And you go, well, you know what, mate?

I got this morning, I thought, I'm gonna find a blue car and ram the crap out of it.

And you know, and I've said that once and they were like, what?

And I was just like, shut up, man.

You know, I'm sorry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm happy, too.

Accidents happen.

But it's very interesting, your point, that if you condemn it, indeed, that silly example, car crash when they're coming, and you go, why?

Why?

It's actually shutting down the conversation because it's saying you're a bad person, you're wrong, you.

You're an idiot, you know, and give me the reasons you did this.

Is it you're stupid, Is it?

You weren't looking, you know, and it's like.

Well, you're back to that old phrase, psychological safety, aren't you?

And let me get this straight.

I mean, so you're in the military and people die.

There's probably always some sort of inquiry into that, that what happened.

Now, let's say you made a really stupid mistake.

What's your liability at that point?

Are you.

Do you get, like, punished or.

So there will be an inquiry.

And I have had a few dinks with helicopters, so I can speak from personal experience here.

What they will.

They'll determine kind of what the intent was.

That's quite important.

If you're rule breaking for organizational gains, we've got a bit of a flowchart.

If you're rule breaking for organizational gains, so let's just say you pushed the crew duty and you were a little bit tired and you made a mistake and, you know, you overran on the Runway or whatever it was.

If you'd done that to get extra troops out because they needed to get home, then they go, okay, we can see the intent was kind of noble, as it were.

If you were rule breaking for personal gain, so you were just showboating and trying to show off, then there would be a disciplinary.

Oh, it's just like driving, isn't it?

If you're doing 110 on the motorway just for the hell of it and you crash, then I'm not going to sympathise that much.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But also, I think that's important because we want to empower people to break the rules and use their own military judgment.

So, you know, if we just have a whole load of robots that just blindly follow rules, what's the point in having these brilliant people that we train up?

So we need people to employ military judgment, and even though we're very good at following rules in the military, we need to have the confidence to break the rules when it feels right for safety or operational reasons.

That's the principle of the commandos and stuff.

Wasn't it that they sort of took.

Made some rule breakers?

They were like, we've got these really rebellious bunch, but they get shit done.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Because the rules actually in reality don't allow them to flex for their situation.

I think that's why Marine commandos make good entrepreneurs, because they're sort of naturally disruptors.

Yeah, yeah.

They like the chaos.

Yeah.

Okay, so you need.

It's a question of the reasons for which you bent the rules.

Therefore, in business, therefore, how do you create that same scenario at work?

Cause are you therefore encouraging people to bend the rules if it's for the benefit of the business, or is it more.

You're trying to encourage them to create an atmosphere where people can make mistakes and you can talk about it?

Is it?

Yeah, I think it's a bit of both.

I think it's.

I see psychological safety as two sides of a coin.

One is being prepared, you know, before the fact, being prepared to challenge the status quo and go, I don't think this is the right way to do this.

You know, maybe there's another way.

And if necessary, if time doesn't allow them to challenge the system, they just sort of act unilaterally.

And then there's after the fact.

Okay.

Whether they follow the rules or not, what did I learn?

What could I have done better?

What was the near miss?

You know, maybe.

Maybe nothing went wrong, but they kind of went.

Got away with that one, you know, being able to talk about that, to share it.

So I see it as kind of before and after, just allowing people to kind of.

Of trust their judgment a little bit more.

And it is a balance, of course, because we do have, you know, the framework of rules, and we don't necessarily want to be completely lawless, but I think it's about giving people a little bit of autonomy.

Yeah.

Okay.

Do you think psychological safety is misunderstood, therefore.

So I do have a.

A bit of a thing about psychological safety in that I sometimes think when people go, this is a safe space, and they always say it like that, which really irritates me.

I think you can't guarantee how someone feels in a scenario.

No, I will have my own reasons for holding back.

You know, you could be Santa Claus and, you know, say, there's nothing you can say that will get you in trouble.

Well, a, you can't guarantee that.

Cause if I went, well, actually I just robbed the bank and I, you know, signed the check with whatever, so you can't guarantee that anyway.

But secondly, people have got their own reasons for Feeling afraid of talking up about failure or challenging a situation.

So I think we've got to realize that you can't create a safe space, but you can create an environment.

You can create the optimal environment and you can go so far to create those conditions that will encourage people.

But also people need to understand they've still got a personal responsibility to show up and be brave.

And this will feel uncomfortable.

No matter how many times you do, it will feel uncomfortable to go, yeah, I screwed up there.

Or it would feel uncomfortable to say, boss, I think you're wrong about that.

You know, that's always going to be uncomfortable because we're hardwired to be people pleasers.

Right.

So I think it's understanding that psychological safety goes both ways.

It's not just about creating an environment.

It's about brave people also making brave decisions.

Yeah.

And encouraging that bravery, I guess.

How do you encourage bravery?

Well, setting a good example is a good way to start.

Oh, from the leadership.

Yeah.

And actually.

And how does the leader show bravery?

Well, and that's the thing, you know, I think a lot of bravery in today's world is actually vulnerability.

Right.

You know, it's saying, I don't have all the answers.

And again, there's.

I think there's a time and a place.

It's not about oversharing, it's not about dumping your crap onto people, but it's about appropriate amounts of sharing your vulnerability.

I think that's probably one of the.

The bravest things that we can do in the workplace.

You know, my dear, sissy's not around anymore.

She was always very good at that.

She was very good at getting information out of people.

She's very good, but she never really tell you much about herself, but somehow would sort of show a bit of vulnerability.

So you can be quite unspecific with vulnerability, can't you?

Sort of a bit vague.

That's a really good point.

People often say you're very vulnerable on stage, Sarah, because I took about, you know, failure and I talk about fear of rejection.

I talk about quite sort of, you know, unsexy subjects.

But actually I don't feel vulnerable at all because I'm choosing the narrative, I'm choosing what I share.

The time I feel really vulnerable is when I open up to questions because I don't get to decide what the questions are going to be.

What are you scared of there?

You're a swat.

You don't get the answer.

Yeah, I don't think I'm worried about that.

I think I'm still worried up as.

I mean, this is very personal and I don't want to sort of make this a therapy session, but I think I've got this sort of.

I'm a monster, I'm not very nice, you know, I kind of laugh just.

Just enough of a bitch.

But, you know, secretly I do worry about that.

And I think I'm worried that I'm going to show on stage.

Like a question is going to trigger me and it's going to irritate me.

And I'm going to go, you're probably being quite honest about the thoughts in our heads, you know, I mean, you ever watch peep show?

The genius of peep show is they showed the true thoughts people have.

Yeah.

And the truth is people think pretty crappy things a lot of the time.

You know, that's what we do as humans, isn't it?

Oh, I think they're horrible.

You know, I mean, I always joke with the British one when we're terribly nice to each other on the phone and then we hang up and go, wanker.

Yeah, yeah.

And I suppose, I guess one of the things I want to do is when I have these conversations and realize, okay, well, it's not just me that thinks that, then I think, well, maybe that is something that's worth sharing.

Because again, if we feel shame about this, it's not to say let's all go out there and be toxic.

It's not making excuses or condoning it.

But if you try, if you, you know, shame is not a good way to deal with this.

Shame is a terrible word.

Emotion.

It's a really dangerous place.

Shame, I think, I think it drives some of the saddest behaviors of all of us.

And people feel terrible shame when it doesn't exist.

I mean, apparently it exists for good reason.

Because if you lived in a vi, you know, you lived in a tribe of hundred people and you were shamed enough to get thrown out of the tribe.

Well, you don't have food, you don't have protect, you don't have a tribe now you're on your own.

You're gonna die.

So we're very hardwired to be very scared of rejection and stuff like that.

But I think it's so sad sometimes that how shave.

It's what suicide comes from, shame, isn't it?

You know, and you look at, you stand back from it on the outside and you're like, why?

You know, why you're a great person.

Do you know what I mean?

And they've got, I think as Much as possible, we shouldn't feel shame.

I mean there are some things you feel, should feel ashamed.

Ashamed of, but they should be quite extreme in my book, would you say or not?

So I do.

I think all emotions have got positive intent.

Right?

That's what my mindfulness teaching tells me in that.

So they're trying to protect us.

So if you feel shame it's because you've done something that is counter to your values and probably your society's values because a lot of your values are inherited.

So shame hopefully keeps your moral compass kind of firing right to your true north.

I think it's where when that emotion becomes self fulfilling so you get into self destructive behaviors because you're like, well I'm kind of going down the shame path now.

Or if it produces avoidance behaviors or self loathing or whatever it is.

So I guess that's the thing that I'm really interested in is how do we navigate that emotion in a way that we sort of use the information that it's telling us going that that's not, you're not cool with that.

So you know, let's turn that one down next time.

But equally let's not turn that into a weapon against ourselves because self loathing and shame is a shit way to grow as a person.

The whole phrase, you can't shame yourself into change, you can only love yourself into evolution.

So no, no, yeah.

I mean I'm with you on the British level of trying to say these things, but yeah, no, true.

And obviously Brennan done a lot of stuff around shame and I sort of, I'd like to think of myself as kind of the British edgy helicopter pilot version of Brett A.

Brown where I can sort of use that and go, the antidote to shame is talking about it.

Not in a sort of too much information kind of way, but when you start sharing this stuff people go, oh my God, me too, thank God for that, you know.

So actually that's where I'm trying to let's channel it as opposed to, or let's leverage it as opposed to hiding away from it.

And now a quick word from our sponsor.

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Just a quick reminder to come say hi or whatever.

So social platform you like?

We're pretty much on all of them.

Just search for wblondon.

We've all got our problems, you know, some of these, some of these leaders will have, you know, quite often in leadership I say they can have quite toxic traits and how do they deal with that?

How do they put that on the table?

Right, yeah.

So I, I think my particular interest is in having that self awareness and doing the inner work that is required.

So really leadership starts with self leadership.

I think it has to.

And really.

So that's quite inward focused and that my natural leaning is to sort of focus inwards first and then kind of focus outwards.

So that's the particular angle that I'm interested in.

I'm not saying that's all about all that leaders should be thinking about.

It's just what I particularly like talking about.

So I think it's being able to sort of look in the mirror and go, I'm not massively happy with that aspect, so what can I do about that?

And it will almost always come from a place of fear.

You know, the reason that a leader doesn't like being challenged is because they're afraid that they, you know, are looking stupid.

Or a reason that a leader might punish mistakes is because.

Because they're afraid that if they do that they're showing weakness.

So I think it almost always comes from a place of fear, but it might manifest as a toxic trait.

And so we kind of need to start from a place of self compassion, which might sound a bit at odds.

If you're a toxic leader, you might be thinking, well, he's just a bully or she's just a bully.

But I think everybody wants to be good, you know, again, back to our point, nobody goes into work and goes, today I'm going to be a toxic, shitty leader.

Nobody wants to be that, that person or very few people.

You're right.

It is always insecurity, isn't it?

Whenever you see someone behave badly, you just go, well, they're insecure about it, doesn't it?

You know, they're insecure that they not powerful enough so they're throwing their weight around or whatever it is or, you know, they're, you know, I mean, not to get into sexist ones, but you often, you know, I've worked with people who are great with men but terrible with women and you're like, well, that's about where they're probably very insecure about their relationship with women, you know, and they, you know, maybe they had a bad relationship with their mum and they've never had a sister or something like that, you know, those sorts of things.

I mean, of the toxic, what are the sort of comic Toxic traits do you think of a leader?

We're talking narcissism and these are the sort of things or yeah, narcissism, bullying.

Being very kind of single minded, I think being intimidating, you know, when people censor themselves around you, that isn't really leadership, that's a dictatorship.

And if I'm honest, I recognize that in myself, you know.

And I got some sort of quite robust feedback and they were like, people don't really want to say what they think around you because they're afraid they're going to get their head bitten off.

And it was always like that's not how I wanted to show up.

That would just be my mouth would engage before I kind of thought it through or you know, I'm just quite, I wear my emotions.

You're quite comprehensive when I first met you.

You've got quite intense energy when you first meet you.

Like, you know, like a lot of people say that you've got this sort of, you know, almost like a guard dog thing, you know, this like.

I'm not saying calling your God, but it's in like, you know, there's this sort of.

But actually when you start talking, you're just very open, relax and everything sort of thing.

So you're outwardly.

You've got a lot of people say.

They don't like me when they first meet me.

Don't worry, I get the same thing.

Everyone thinks I'm weird, annoying.

I mean, so funny how you see she's come up all the time.

When I was in my 20s and 30s, you know, like a year or two into getting to know someone, say, oh, I like you, you know, I thought you were arrogant guy, really weird guy when I first met you.

But do you think for you any of that?

And I don't want to go down the sexist path but you know, being, being and there's more and more women in the military.

But do you as part of you trying to sort of be a bit sort of.

I'm in a man's environment, I need to have a sort of tough exterior.

Or is it completely unrelated?

I mean it certainly wasn't conscious and I actually think it's not to blame my mum, but my mum was quite a firecracker and I think I'd learned it from my mum.

You know, she wore her emotions very close to the surface.

You could tell when you'd pissed her off.

We were scared of her growing up.

I think I just am a version of my mum.

It's so hard being a mum though.

It Is.

I mean, my dear wife, she's the disciplinarian.

She's such a kind, gentle person.

As we've had kids, she's, you know, she's got so tough, but she can see what.

All I'm thinking about is today and tomorrow, you know, and am I gonna get drunk?

You know, and it's like she's worrying about their future, she's worrying about their education.

She's worrying, you know, I have to make an effort as a man.

I know generalizations and stuff, but there's, you know, I just.

I just think motherhood.

What.

There is no more mature person than a mother.

A mother has such a duty on her shoulders, you know, something it does to them.

That is sort of.

Yeah.

I mean, I.

I could imagine the nicest person in the world becoming a pretty hard ass after becoming a mum because it's sort of.

It's almost the biology of it.

They've almost got to be, isn't it?

You know?

I suppose so.

And again, I think you're.

You know, I've done a lot of reading of parenting books, and a person I really like is Dr.

Shefali, and she talks about how.

How much we project onto our kids, you know, our unmet needs.

So I think, you know, when I get angry at my son for forgetting his school cat for the third time this week, that's not to do with anything about him.

It's because I've asked him once, so I feel ignored, you know, so I'm actually.

If you tunnel down, which you don't tend to do in the heat of the moment, it's because I'm afraid of being insignificant.

Really?

Well.

Cause my wife can't stand it when the kids ignore her.

And then she'll be on her phone for 20 minutes and I can't get her attention.

Yeah, exactly.

Right, exactly.

And because they're young, they don't sort of call you out on your BS quite yet.

So, yeah, you know, you sort of.

Your kids kind of see your worst, but also they deserve your best.

Right.

And then you kind of go, oh, why am I such an asshole to my child?

You know, so, yeah, you raised this question, which is, why do we need to move past the phase as a woman when talking about leadership?

Yes.

Well, I think in many ways, despite the fact I was in the minority as a female in the Air Force, I don't.

Maybe I've got roast into spectacles.

I doubt it.

It was pretty meritocracy, you know, I don't ever remember thinking, you know, People are going to have an issue with authority because I'm a female.

I just don't remember that being a thing for me.

So I suppose when people say it is a thing, I'm like, well, is it a thing or is it a thing in your head?

And the more we say as a woman, the more we're reinforcing this idea that it's harder for us.

I'm not saying there aren't challenges.

And I know maybe I have just been incredibly privileged.

And that's not to say there weren't sexist dinosaurs.

There were.

And there were men that were completely inappropriate who I've complained about, you know, so I've had my fair share of all that stuff.

Right.

But it is the minority.

And I suppose I think the danger of saying as a woman, like the phrase I hear all the time is, as a woman, I have imposter syndrome.

Well, that's rubbish to suggest that only women have imposter syndrome.

And so I think it's sort of.

It's almost sort of alienating men.

And when we're trying to strive towards inclusivity, you're straight away making this about gender and it's the women making it about gender.

So I just think I just wanted to do a bit of a call to arms, woman to woman, to say, say maybe we're making it about gender when we don't need to.

Maybe we're making the problem.

Well, you attach things to it.

I see this, actually, you know, it's.

It's.

As a white privileged male, I can never attach it to who I am if I don't get the job.

Yes.

If this doesn't happen.

And I see it amongst friends who are, you know, maybe they're different color or they're.

And it's like they are wondering to themselves, did I not get the job cause I'm black or did I not get the job cause I'm a woman?

I mean, I'm just using stupid examples or simple examples.

So, yeah, I think it's very easy to attach it.

You're making a slightly different point about when you put forward a point.

It's a bit like when they have an event which is women of power.

It's like sort of.

You're already sort of attaching a concept to that.

You're sort of suggesting, what, do women not have power or only women have power?

I couldn't.

I really agree with you.

And I think we have to be careful because I think if you live in the bubble of London, you know, I do or, you know, maybe the uk.

I find it a very meritocracy society, certainly amongst men and women, you know, and I'm happy to be told what to do by a woman.

I'm happy to be told what to do by a man.

It's really a question of confidence, you know.

And you know, I'm conscious that you can only ever speak from your own experience.

A great book I read was Growing the Elephant and it was talking about, you know, the equivalent is, you know, let's say the world is a big elephant and my experience of the world is the trunk.

Should we just, should we go basic?

Yeah.

Whereas someone else experiences the tail.

So what's true for me when I say, well, it's a meritocracy, why are we still talking about this?

But someone over there is going, well, it's not been like that for me.

And who am I to say that that experience isn't real and valid for them?

So I'm very conscious of that.

But I just would like to sort of nudge people to just to question their own narrative and go, is this a gender problem or is this a lack of self confidence problem?

And I think the other thing that I find a little bit saddening is when women kind of go, well, what are the men doing to get more women on board?

And I think, but you're still looking for men to lead the way when you say that.

So if you want to be taken seriously as a leader, than lead, take the lead.

Yeah.

So I wonder just how often we're waiting for someone else to do something, which weirdly means we're waiting for a white savior.

I'm probably gonna get trolled for saying that, but I just think whenever you do that, you're actually kind of playing the victim narrative.

And actually we just need to step up and lead.

Yeah, it's the self fulfilling prophecy of, I don't know, let's see where it goes.

I mean, it's not easy.

Again, we're different.

I think that's the problem with the equality thing is we're not at the same.

I, you know, yeah, you could find people who are very similar and there's whatever, but without a doubt, you know, there's some different wiring, you know, and that's a hundred.

And I think that's a really fair thing.

I think I've mellowed a little bit.

Cause I think to start with, I was like, no, you know, we shouldn't be saying that.

Boys and girls are different.

Da, da, da, da.

No.

My son is a typical boy.

And I used to like when parents would say, oh, well, you know, typical guy.

Be like, oh, you know, you're already pushing them down a kind of Barbie route.

But know, my son is a typical boy.

He, you know, he laughs about poo and farts and likes cars and he likes cars and car breath and stuff like that.

And, you know, and they say, well, you're influencing like that.

But I've got a little boy and a girl.

And it's like, I.

I didn't.

I said nothing.

She suddenly one day, like rainbows, unicorns and pink.

I was like, how does she even know the word unicorn?

I said to my wife, where did that come from?

You know.

But then I suppose, kind of in the spirit of fairness, you know, I did have an interest in, you know, toy cars when I was a kid, which maybe explains why I wanted to go and ended up, you know, being a pilot.

What would be a shame is if I turned up to a sandpit, which is mostly boys.

Cause that's what they're, you know, drawn to.

And I go, can I play too?

And they went, no, you can't play.

So if the little boys did.

If the little boys said, no, you can't play because you're a girl.

So I think, you know, if girls want to play a girl, wouldn't they.

Say that though, would they?

Exactly.

And I think that what it is, is not expecting boys and girls to be the same.

But if a girl is a tomboy, you know, then that's also okay.

I think it's just giving people choices.

So what's this question you raised about why don't all business take Amex?

And what does that say about leadership choices?

Yeah, so I think it's.

I don't know if I put it down to sort of a leadership choice, but I just think, you know, I run a small business, okay?

So it's a business of one, let's be honest.

But, you know, I have a choice.

Choice about the methods of payments.

And there's, you know, the arguments about, well, you know, there's a commission and there's a delay and all that sort of stuff.

But ultimately, if people want to pay for my services, I want to make it as easy as possible for them to give me their money.

So if I go into and, you know, a very expensive shop or a very expensive restaurant and they don't let me pay with my preferred card, that says to me they're more interested in saving 1% commission than they are in my business, in which case I don't want them to have my business because I'm just a bit like that.

And sometimes what annoys me as well is when they go, oh, well, and you get a little lecture about why they don't take Amex.

They might just at least be sorry and say, I'm really sorry, you know, we.

We don't take Amex.

But I just don't like the little lecture when I'm trying to give someone my money for their products and they go, no, you can't pay that way.

I'm like, well.

And also, you're charging over the odds.

You know, a lot of these places that don't take Amic are vastly overpriced.

So I just feel like it's really.

Just saying we don't really care about what the customer wants, we just care about making that little extra percent.

And that pisses me off.

Yeah, that's how it comes across, isn't it?

I'm not sure whether that's the decision they're always making, is it?

Amex comes with some sort of additional fees and stuff.

But I mean, what if they turned around to you and said, well, it's not five pounds, then it's five pound fifty.

Would you do that?

Absolutely.

Whatever.

Yeah.

I'd be like, fine, put the commission on.

No problem with that whatsoever.

Because I understand, you know, if you've got a tight profit margin, I absolutely get that.

I just want to be able to pay with the card that, you know, gives me Avios, let's face it.

And I don't want to lecture about the fact that I want to pay with Amex.

Avios is just becoming more and more.

Have you been trying to use your companion voucher?

Well, yeah.

Well, how do you.

Does anyone use a companion voucher?

Great difficulty.

No, But I do use it to get, I don't know, use 24,000 Avios to get 3 pence off your next flight.

Oh, yes, I've won.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's true, isn't it?

I mean, the companion voucher is always like, would you like to go to, you know, Edinburgh on Thursday?

No, no, I'll give it a miss if it seems.

Sorry, Edinburgh.

So, you know, from the battlefield to the boardroom, what's a timeless truth about leadership?

And one thing today, leaders urgently need to unlearn.

Yeah, that's a great question.

So I.

The timeless truth is that the most enduring trait of a leader is that we're always evolving.

Right.

Because When I joined, and maybe this is just my own personal journey, but when I joined the military 20 years ago, it was about being the most charismatic, dominating person in the room, but it was also about leading like minded people.

You know, it was all like minded this, like minded that, right?

You know, we in the military were like minded people, whereas now it's all about cognitive diversity and all the rest of it.

So.

So in 20 years our idea of leadership has changed.

So I guess that to me says we can't necessarily predict what leadership will look like in 20 years.

The only thing we can predict is that it will probably evolve and therefore we need to be able to keep evolving.

It's funny how the military, because people die because we have to be really good at fucking fighting, you know, let's face it, you know, we can't be casual about it, you know, either from an internal, people will die.

But also it's a sort of tough international competition.

It's a very brutal cauldron for learning, isn't it?

It's much more brutal even than the commercial world.

That's the, you know, the, if the military, you know, I was interested even you said cognitive diversity, which is very much the right answer, not just diversity for the sake of it.

So it's almost.

If the military worked out, out that something that in normal society would be frowned upon perhaps by, you know, the left or something, they said, well that gets a better answer.

They wouldn't really care, would they?

They would say less people die if everybody eats Mars bars every day or whatever, you know, and it'd be like, right, yeah, everyone has a Mars bar every day.

You know, that's what we're going to do.

Is that fair that the military has this sort of, they, they, they worry less about what is a social trend and it's all about output and you know, minimizing death or you know, success.

Success, Yes.

I mean, again, I don't know what, I don't know because most of my working life has been in the military.

So I didn't, you know, go through my 20s working for a bank or you know, a lawyer firm or whatever it is.

So I could only comment on what I've seen.

But yes, I would say it certainly concentrates the mind and we do have this sort of wonderful common purpose which feels quite noble, which is defending the realm really.

That's sort of, you know, what we're there to do and that, that helps.

But I also think we're very concerned with reputational risk because it's so easy to get a bad reputation because everything's immediately reported, really.

It's the military, you know.

Yeah.

I think that the senior leaders and that was always the thing that would disappoint me the most is when they were.

If you got on the Daily Mail, they caught the Daily Mail test, you know, and it was literally part of.

Our outly Mail test.

But it was part of our outbreak was like, you know, is this gonna hit the Daily Mail?

If we fly down that valley at that time, is someone gonna report at the Daily Mail that we're being cowboys?

You know, can we justify why we need to do this training?

So we were very aware of the Daily Mail test.

Daily Mail test pissed me off.

I completely agree.

I remember hearing a man speak who was head of the Red Arrows, and I can't remember his name, but he gave a, you know, a lecture.

And I remember him, you know, spending a.

The whole hour talking about the selection process that you go through to be a Red Arrow pilot, to be a Red Arrow engineer.

They're really, really, well, kind of selected for their ability, but also their team player ethic and all the rest of it.

And then the training they go through and the debriefing and all the rest of it.

And he was basically going on about, these are like the best humans on the planet.

He said, but if that person gets on the Daily Mail, they're out.

I thought, really?

So you've put all this trust and training into someone, and then a sensational, sensationalist tabloids reports on them and what protection are you giving them?

How about you stand in front of your boys and girls and go piss off?

Daily Mail?

I trust my people.

And that really wound me up.

Yeah, that winds me up.

Well, what winds me up is the power of the Daily Mail.

What winds me up is that the piece of humanity that just loves the gossip and the hate, you know, loves to hate.

I mean, the Daily Mail was, you know, I think I'm right, invented around the turn of the century by a guy who worked out that people didn't want the news, they wanted the gossip.

They wanted to know who was shagging who and what was it.

And that's literally how they started saying, oh, apparently, you know, Prince George has had an affair with so and so.

They probably couldn't quite do the Royals, but.

And that's that gossipy bit of humans that sort of like.

And that.

Because what we love.

We love to.

We love to.

That's why we like bad news.

We don't want to.

We don't we don't, like.

We want to see on Instagram how successful people are.

We want to see people failing and all going wrong and it makes us feel better.

You know, it's like, I always joke, you know, fat people cheer everyone up because they feel like, you know, I don't have to lose weight now.

You know, it's a sort of.

Yeah, it's sad how much that Daily Mail test is running our society now.

You know, it should be.

Surely it should at least be the Times test or the.

You know, it should be slightly.

Slightly more dignified.

You alluded to it earlier, but what was your biggest mess up at work, then?

I mean, you don't have to say if it involves terrible death or things like that, but crashing helicopters, is that a bad thing?

I have hip wires twice.

Twice.

Does that happen?

You just don't see him and you're.

You're.

Yeah.

Wires are really hard to see.

Are they?

And actually, both times.

That sounds like you and your.

When they're doing the inquiry.

Oh, so hard to see.

But they are sort of seen as an occupational hazard.

But it is very, very rare for.

There's no, like, with a car.

There's no, like, parking sensor going, beep, beep.

Well, there is now, and in the uk, it's very well mapped and most of the time they're on the map.

But in both scenarios, they weren't marked on the particular map that I was.

And you have GPS maps now, I assume?

Yeah, and you have that now as well.

And in fact, the second wire strike happened in the UK and they weren't marked on that particular map, but they are now.

You're welcome.

Also, Puma, the Puma helicopter went through an Upgrade and Pima 1 didn't have cable cutter, Puma 2 did.

So also underneath has some things that.

Cut wire on the, sort of in between the top of the canopy and the gearbox.

There's basically kind of these things which just.

And that's.

If you accidentally hit a wire, it.

Will sort of gather up the wires and cut them, as opposed to it taking off the rotor blades.

Obviously, it's not funny to crash helicopters and it's a very expensive business, but, you know, again, you know, the military was incredibly not forgiving, but, you know, it really did.

I really can speak for just culture because, you know, I didn't get in trouble and I didn't have to write any massive checks, which is good.

I was doing this thing, actually.

I started asking Chachi BT about, you know, tell me about the best militaries in the world and whatever.

It's surprising how high up the list the British military, we punch well above our weight.

Yeah, exactly.

We're quite small.

I'm like, really?

Do people really think we're any good?

And it's like, yeah, our training is second to none.

You know, we're revered as a military in that sense.

We are.

And you know, people come from all over the world to train with us.

And I used to.

So my final tour was teaching air safety.

Cause we always do a ground tour.

So I was teaching air safety and people come from all over the world because we were the world leaders in air safety.

Which means that we're also the world leaders in kind of just culture, reporting culture.

Cause we understand back to my previous point, nobody gets out of bed to crash a helicopter.

Helicopter.

So if we're making these mistakes, then anyone could have made them and we need to learn from them and talk about them and talk about them.

So we're just cultures.

Is that sort of justice, you mean?

Almost.

So it's, it's the opposite of a blame culture.

You know, blame culture is you messed up.

Just culture is, you know, as long as it wasn't willful negligence and it was an honest mistake, it will be treated as such and we will try to extract the learning from it.

And we assume positive intent.

You know, we always assume, assume that we got out of bed to do a good job today.

So, yeah, we had John on, I forget his surname.

John White.

John White.

Very good.

Great guy.

Yeah, great guy, but lovely guy.

And I was asking this in because, you know, why would Britain have a good military?

But I always remember a guy, a friend of mine, he's actually Australian, but he was in the British military and you know, very revered in, in what he did.

And I, I was chatting to one of his bosses, I guess at his 40th anyway.

But yeah, I was sort of like, well, why, you know, why are somebo and the others, he was like, well, nobody.

The only reason you're going to go out into gunfire, mate, is, is if your friend is out there.

You know, it's all about camaraderie underneath it.

Why, why do you.

What.

What makes a good military.

It's about these, this camaraderie.

And then to me as a British person, that would always link to humor because I think that, you know, we, we, we're famous for it around the world.

But one of our real strengths as a country is, is our love and use of humor for every situation and it's sensibility and John very much was like, oh, absolutely.

And he was even saying when he had his leg and arm blown off, you know, he's like, the lads were cracking jokes and you can imagine.

I mean, it's funny.

I was walking along the street, I was just thinking of him saying that the other day, and I was thinking, oh, they must have cracked the.

Well, that's cost you an arm and a leg.

Whatever.

Yeah, that's a good one, mate.

But there's something about humor.

I mean, do you relate to that or sort of.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think.

I mean, we're sort of fueled by banter, and I think it.

I think also humor is a way to, you know, it's like oven gloves to hold hot shit.

That's not my phrase.

Someone else said that.

But we're dealing with some pretty serious things that could really drag you down.

And it's not to make overly light or avoid stuff, but it's a good way to hold heavy things lightly and go, you know, I don't know.

I just think it's a really good coping mechanism.

Any top tips?

You give us some sort of three top tips for founders or entrepreneurs or, you know, for leadership, perhaps.

So three top tips for founders and entrepreneurs.

I would say, first of all, take amex.

Love it.

Because you're sending a clear signal to your customer.

You just want to be as easy as possible to do business with.

So if someone wants to pay you with Amex, just take amex.

It's really easy.

Whatever, whatever.

Away.

Yeah, yeah.

So that would be a top tip, I think.

Second one is like, lead with value.

So, you know, I know that when you start out, you've got to do a lot of cold calling, and you're calling in a lot of favors and you will be.

But, you know, I just think you've.

You've got to think about why would that person want to sit and have a conversation with me?

Time is money.

So why would someone want to give me 30 minutes of their time, even if it's just taking them for a cup of coffee?

But you see so many things on kind of LinkedIn.

We go, can I just sort of.

Could we just do a quick call?

And I'm like, why?

Why do I want to do a quick call with you?

And I get that you've.

You've got to kind of go out there and sort of play the numbers game, but I just think if you can just lead with value and go, why would that person want to give me 30 minutes of their time, even if it's yeah, I'll take you for a coffee or, I don't know, I'll write a LinkedIn post.

I just think we've always got to be thinking about the only reason people buy anything from us is because there's some value in it for them.

So I think we've always got to think about what's important in it for them.

And that's just, you know, that's something I learned having left the military because you don't think commercially when you're in the military.

You don't have to.

And actually your LinkedIn example, you want to reach out to someone and be like, look, I just, Sanjay, I'd really love to ask you this one question or something.

You know, it's got to be not too long too, isn't it?

It's sort of a specific thing that I would just, you know, but what's the value?

To me you're right.

Like why, why bother doing that sort of thing?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, most of the time there probably isn't value, which is why it's not gonna work out.

But you know, and you know, sometimes you just, you know, you can't, you can't do that all the time.

But I think more as much as you can sort of leading with value.

Like a guy that I worked with who down does my video editing, he said, I've seen some of your videos on LinkedIn, love them.

I've just mashed together a 30 second thing which you can have for free.

Brilliant.

Hired em immediately, you know, now I don't know how long it took him to do that and that's a lot of upfront work, but he 100% converted and I have done repeated work with him.

Now that's an extreme example, but if you can find that on the spectrum of how could I make that person's day a little bit easier?

Just what is in it for them?

Why would that.

And it's not because we're mercenary, it's just because we're busy and you've got to think commercially and think time is.

Very precious, very precious time I've wasted, you know, for sure.

No, and I think you, you should respect people's time.

Was that number two?

That was number two.

And I think number three was.

And I was thinking of being a founder and entrepreneur, but actually this is equally true for being a leader.

I have certainly learned that I like to talk about things some people don't, but I like to talk things through and that's one of my ways of processing things.

And I think for a long time I would lean on the wrong people.

I'd lean on my friends to talk about, you know, deep emotional stuff that they're not equipped to deal with or, you know, running a business.

And I realized, actually, no one's an island.

You can't.

You.

It is true that you.

You sort of.

I certainly need a sort of support network around me, but it's also knowing who to go to for the right stuff and not expecting your friends to be your business coach or, you know, your son to be your leadership coach.

You know, it's looking for help in the right places, and I've got that wrong quite a few times.

Thank you, Sarah.

You've been a wonderful guest.

I really appreciate your time and coming down to do this.

You get to fly a helicopter now and then any of these days or not?

No, I.

No, you don't get a kind of civilian license when you're in the military.

You have to sort of apply for it separately and go through all the.

Oh, wow, Retrain.

Yeah.

So.

And I never saw.

I never saw the point in paying to do a crappier version of what I could have done in the military, because all the best flyings in the military.

Yeah, right.

And I kept crashing, so I felt like it's probably time to.

If someone wants to find you or book you, where do they find you?

Probably the easiest thing is just to go to sarahferness.com nice and easy.

Nice and easy.

And your name's spelled.

Yeah.

F, U, R, N, E dash S.

So furness, how it's sort of pronounced, or sorry, how it's spelled.

So there you have it.

That was this week's episode of Business Without.

We'll be back next Wednesday.

Until then, it's ciao.

It.